ASA Catcher's Box Violation

[Linknblue]

Had a situation that I've never had before this weekend. 1st and 3rd situation with runners in tie game.

I'm in set position waiting on pitch and catcher suddenly comes up and out of her squat and enters the rear of the left handed batter's box in a standing position. Batter was squaring to bunt. Catcher did this just before or right after pitch was delivered. It was unexpected so I'm not exactly sure of when.

It was obviously a "called" play because pitch was right to her chest high. End result was a called "ball". After the inning the OC comes up to me and asks about the rule on that. I ended up telling him it was a pitchout and it's legal and he bought it.

My question here is, I know where she was and she was "out of the catcher's box". Is the penalty simply a called ball?

I in no way saw this as trying to distract the batter so no way was this an "ejectable" situation.

Thanks,

[CecilOne]

By rule, "Catcher did this just before or right after pitch was delivered. It was unexpected so I'm not exactly sure of when" matters.
After is no call, before is IP.
Of course, there is the exception about moving forward if the batter is forward; and squaring to bunt makes that sound likely.

[MD Longhorn]

Right before or right after... another one of those cases where it's part of our job to determine what happened first.

That said ... if they are moving to the spot you described as the pitcher begins pitching, I would be very surprised if she was actually no longer in the catcher's box at the moment the pitch was released. And to call that on her, you'd better be SURE.

Smart batter, however, would have tried to bunt the pitch anyway and likely gotten a CO call.

[Robert Goodman]

What are the criteria that determine whether it was a pitch?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What are the criteria that determine whether it was a pitch?

There are definitions in the rulebook(s). One describes exactly when a pitch begins.

This is an ASA thread. That rule is that a pitch begins when the pitcher, after bringing her hands together, separates her hands. The same definition applies to NCAA.

NFHS starts the pitch even sooner, depending on the pitcher's motion; it adds "or makes any motion that is part of the windup after the hands have been brought together".

[IRISHMAFIA]

One would think that if you still saw the pitch after the catcher moved she probably left the box early.

[Linknblue]

Ok. In rethinking the situation I posted about, and reading the replies, I now remember what happened.

I was in the slot waiting.
Pitcher started windup.
Catcher sprang up and went to left handed batter's box.
I thought, "WTF" because the catcher completely vacated her normal spot and I was totally naked in the slot. I got up out of my squat and moved slightly to the left out of slot still wondering WTF. Ball came in to catcher at that point. I called it a ball because it was out of zone and it simply surprised me.

From what I've heard, should have called IP and moved runners up. If it ever happens again, I'll know "WTF".

Thanks guys,

John

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What are the criteria that determine whether it was a pitch?

OK, so last night I answered the question that you asked. However, it really isn't pertinent to this thread, because the rule in effect here, in every code is that the catcher must be within the catcher's box when the pitch is RELEASED. Same as when the runner can leave the base.

Back to the OP. Remember that someone is IN until a foot is touching the ground, and every part that is touching is completely OUT. Be sure that's what happened before the release before making what will be a very marginal if even necessary call, despite being accurate.

Also that the catcher's box does extend the entire width of both batter's boxes.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

One would think that if you still saw the pitch after the catcher moved she probably left the box early.

How? She can begin moving as soon as the pitch is released... she would have to be all the way out of the catcher's box before the release to be illegal. Seems equally likely that she may or may not have done that.

[Robert Goodman]

The reason I asked what determines whether an action is a pitch is because in baseball there's been discussion of whether the pitcher can throw home to make a play on a runner coming from 3rd without the throw's counting as a pitch, and if so, how the 2 actions are distinguished.

[MD Longhorn]

This is kind of a silly question. In baseball, they lead off the base before the pitch... and pitchers can step off the rubber to become a fielder and throw to a base.

In softball, they do not leave the base until the pitch is released. So there's no such thing as throwing to a base.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

How? She can begin moving as soon as the pitch is released... she would have to be all the way out of the catcher's box before the release to be illegal. Seems equally likely that she may or may not have done that.

My only statement on this is that if this is any type of higher level game, for the catcher to catch the ball in the rear of LH BB chest high, while standing, it would be pretty darn quick to stand move and be in position to catch. If this is a pitchout, the pitch isn't going to be a changeup coming in, it will be a fastball. A fastball at a higher level of ball is highly unlikely to give a catcher the time to get moved all the way if she really left at the release.

With that said, this is a HTBT situation to actually make a call.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is kind of a silly question. In baseball, they lead off the base before the pitch... and pitchers can step off the rubber to become a fielder and throw to a base.

In softball, they do not leave the base until the pitch is released. So there's no such thing as throwing to a base.

Then why did they pitch out in this case? I'd assumed this was a version of fast pitch that allowed leading & stealing, and that the purpose of the pitchout was to counter a suicide squeeze. Otherwise pitching out seems a total waste of a pitch.

[Linknblue]

It was plain ol' ASA Fastpitch 12U A play. I can only assume that the defense did what they did because it was a close game and the defense had a 1st and 3rd situation to deal with and there was some sort of play on to combat it....but with 12U, it ain't perfect.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

It was plain ol' ASA Fastpitch 12U A play. I can only assume that the defense did what they did because it was a close game and the defense had a 1st and 3rd situation to deal with and there was some sort of play on to combat it....but with 12U, it ain't perfect.

Some sort of play...to combat a situation where the runners have to hold their bases until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand?

In that case, couldn't you just rule on general principles? There's no advantage to pitching out, there's no safety issue, it's not wasting time, the catcher gains no edge by repositioning on a ball that's not going to be in play...so why would the action be penalized?