Catcher in catcher's box prior to LBR?

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok here is how it was asked to me.
Live ball, R1 on 3rd R2 on 2nd (rounded the bases) ball thrown back to pitcher in circle runners head back to bases. Catcher and infielders head to circle to talk to pitcher, not asking for time. R1 takes off and scores and R2 advances to 3rd. What is the call??

The guy describing this to me wanted umpire to call time and send the runners back. My thought was runners are out for leaving early, he stated that the book says that you can't call leaving early unless the catcher is in the catchers box ready to recieve a pitch. The only time I remember reading the catcher needing to be in the box is for the pitcher being ready to pitch, and requesting the batter to enter the box.

Am I missing something or is he mixing rules??? By the way the call on the field in this game was that the runners advance was allowed run scored and now R2 is on 3rd.

[mcrowder]

You're not calling the runner for leaving early. You're calling her out for violating the LBR, which makes no mention of the catcher.

Note - in your sitch with 2 runners, the first runner that came off a base kills the play - I don't believe you ring them both out for this.

[wadeintothem]

Catcher in the box is not part of LBR. Runner out.

[DaveASA/FED]

Thanks, I said leaving early but your right it would be a violation of LBR can't change directions twice. Once returned to base must stay there! I am going to have to re-read the rule I can't remember leaving the base as a violation of LBR, I mean if runner was standing on 3rd prior to the pitcher getting the ball for LBR does it specifically say she can't leave the base until the next pitch? Again I will re-read but all I remember is talk about getting back to base, which would work in this case as they both stopped once and returned, but for some reason I don't remember talk about leaving the base once pitcher has ball in LBR.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Depends on your game. In NCAA, that is a legal defensive play, and runner is out on LBR. That play is used regularly by Mississippi State; catcher tells PU "I am going to talk to my pitcher and I am NOT asking for time".

In ASA, the case book ruling on Play 8.8-67B is "Time out is called. Defensive deception cannot be allowed to entice a runner to violate the look back rule."

[mcrowder]

If for some reason I felt defense was doing this on purpose, to confuse offense, I could be talked into invoking that rule.

This sitch sounds more like defense having a normal conference, and offense trying to take advantage, illegally.

Even in ASA.

[streamdoc]

A non-veteran ump here, and I haven't seen (recognized) too many LBR violations. I did want to clarify for Dave though, at least with my understanding of the rule. If the runers had returned to the bases, then left again, they would be out. Or, at least the first one would be if that totally kills the play, and we could only ring one of them up. If they were returning to the bases, they can stop once (one-thousand-one) then have to immediately go one way or the other. Now, here is my question:

If a runner stops at a base, and pitcher does not have control of the ball within the circle, can the runner leave the base at that point? I seem to remember some statement in the rule book (ASA) that would prohibit this, but don't have the book with me.

thanks,

[streamdoc]

O.K. so I just looked up the rule that I was referring to above regarding leaving the base once a runner has stopped at that base. It is listed under the LBR (8-7-T(2)), so I was a bit confused. Sorry.

[kono]

This is probably a Little League Baseball coach. Runners can't leave early once the pitcher is on the rubber with the ball and the catcher is ready to receive the pitch.

[rwest]

Is the runner called out on LBR for leaving early only if the Pitcher is in the circle with the ball?

For example, runner at 1st. On a wild pitch R1 advances to 2nd base and stops. She does not round 2nd. On the play F1 went to cover home as the ball got by F2. F2 throws the ball to F1 who is standing near home plate. As F1 heads toward the circle, R2 comes off of the bag at 2nd. F1 is not in the circle when this occurs. Is R2 out?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by rwest
Is the runner called out on LBR for leaving early only if the Pitcher is in the circle with the ball?

For example, runner at 1st. On a wild pitch R1 advances to 2nd base and stops. She does not round 2nd. On the play F1 went to cover home as the ball got by F2. F2 throws the ball to F1 who is standing near home plate. As F1 heads toward the circle, R2 comes off of the bag at 2nd. F1 is not in the circle when this occurs. Is R2 out?

Your first question: Yes. The pitcher must have the ball and be in the circle.

Your second question: No. The runner is not out.

[Dakota]

One other thing - nomenclature.

"Leaving early" is a different rule than the LBR.

They are very similar in when they are in effect, but they are different'

The ASA "leaving early" rule is 8-7-S.

The ASA "look back" rule is 8-7-T.

[outathm]

This is a 'hidden ball trick' for FP softball. I have also seen the play where the R1 on 2b and the SS and 3b go in to talk to the pitcher without asking for time. NCAA and Fed is an out, ASA had adressed it and it's a dead ball, runners return.

I like the play though, good try to get an out.

[TwoBits]

Originally posted by outathm
This is a 'hidden ball trick' for FP softball. I have also seen the play where the R1 on 2b and the SS and 3b go in to talk to the pitcher without asking for time. NCAA and Fed is an out, ASA had adressed it and it's a dead ball, runners return.

I like the play though, good try to get an out.

Do you have a rule reference or casebook reference for FED handy?