WCWS Softball

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Even though I agree with Manny about difficulty, especially on an outside pitch, this was pretty obvious and these are the best umpires in the U.S.
Her toe was clearly down at the front of the plate with her heel up at the moment of contact.

Yes, exactly - completely legal in NCAA. The NCAA rule includes the phrase "completely on the ground" - the interp being that if only part of the foot is touching the ground (the toe) and the rest is not (the heel in this case) but that "rest" would be touching the batters box line if it WAS touching the ground, then they do not have one foot completely on the ground, completely outside the batters box.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

but that "rest" would be touching the batters box line if it WAS touching the ground,

Not the case, and if it were, only in NCAA.

Elsewhere AFAIK, "entirely touching out means none touching in"
All, please correct me if wrong.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Not the case, and if it were, only in NCAA.

Elsewhere AFAIK, "entirely touching out means none touching in"
All, please correct me if wrong.

ASA says "entire foot is touching the ground completely outside", but it also says "any part of the foot is touching home plate".

I have to give the benefit of the doubt to the batter since this is so difficult to see. You are focusing on the pitch up to the point of contact, and if you then look down at the feet it is too late to know for sure if the foot was down AT contact or just after. IOW, it needs to be blatantly obvious - in my field of view and down before contact. This does not mean I am making a private rule... it just means as a practical matter, it is nearly impossible to do otherwise.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Absolutely the case.

Here's the NCAA rule, word for word:

"At the moment of bat-ball contact, the batter may not contact the pitch when any part of her foot is touching home plate, even though she may be touching the lines of the batter's box. In addition, the batter may not contact the pitch when her entire foot is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box."

Note - the ENTIRE FOOT is touching the ground.

Mike, I believe someone has sold you a steaming pile. The entire foot touching has always meant to reflect that any and all parts of the foot which are touching.

By what you are saying, she could hop three times on her toes and be 6 feet in front of the box at the time of contact as long as she never let her entire foot touch the ground at any one time??

Originally Posted by Dakota

ASA says "entire foot is touching the ground completely outside", but it also says "any part of the foot is touching home plate".

I have to give the benefit of the doubt to the batter since this is so difficult to see. You are focusing on the pitch up to the point of contact, and if you then look down at the feet it is too late to know for sure if the foot was down AT contact or just after. IOW, it needs to be blatantly obvious - in my field of view and down before contact. This does not mean I am making a private rule... it just means as a practical matter, it is nearly impossible to do otherwise.

Tom, let me paraphrase; if the pitch is down in the zone, you maybe can see the foot while tracking the pitch. If the pitch is up, in or out, maintaining the priority of tracking the ball makes seeing the foot definitively on the ground and completely out of the box is generally unlikely.

Coach, if you want that call, maybe you should be throwing drops, not riseballs!!

[Andy]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Coach, if you want that call, maybe you should be throwing drops, not riseballs!!

I may use this one......

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...Tom, let me paraphrase; if the pitch is down in the zone, you maybe can see the foot while tracking the pitch. If the pitch is up, in or out, maintaining the priority of tracking the ball makes seeing the foot definitively on the ground and completely out of the box is generally unlikely.

Coach, if you want that call, maybe you should be throwing drops, not riseballs!!

Yeah... that's what I meant to say!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Mike, I believe someone has sold you a steaming pile. The entire foot touching has always meant to reflect that any and all parts of the foot which are touching.

By what you are saying, she could hop three times on her toes and be 6 feet in front of the box at the time of contact as long as she never let her entire foot touch the ground at any one time??

Well, it was supposedly from Dee... but I don't have first-hand confirmation of that.

And no to the 2nd paragraph. I said as much in my first post. The interp on this is that if the part of the foot that is not touching were touching, and that part was STILL out of the box, the foot is completely out of the box.

The idea here is that if the heel is over the line but only the toe is touching, the foot is still in the box. No one is trying to extend this 6 feet forward.

[MD Longhorn]

Besides ... take this a bit further. Most of us are saying that a PU tracking the pitch can't see simultaneously that the foot is outside the batters box (especially at NCAA speed) ... and I agree.

But now we're asking the PU to see that the heel is (vertically) OVER the line, but not TOUCHING the line???!!!??? Seriously? From his angle, and with his priority on tracking the pitch????

Yeah ... I don't think so.

[jmkupka]

Mike this is similar to your explanation of NCAA's interp of the pivot foot, where the ball of the foot can be 6-7" in front of the PP, so when the pitcher goes up on the ball (contact now existing well in front of PP), the heel is still above the vertical plane, so still legal.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Besides ... take this a bit further. Most of us are saying that a PU tracking the pitch can't see simultaneously that the foot is outside the batters box (especially at NCAA speed) ... and I agree.

But now we're asking the PU to see that the heel is (vertically) OVER the line, but not TOUCHING the line???!!!??? Seriously? From his angle, and with his priority on tracking the pitch????

Yeah ... I don't think so.

Perhaps I, and others, I believe are misunderstanding your prior point or position. You were the one I understood to be saying that a foot clearly and fully in front of the plate, but with the heel up so it wasn't actually in contact with the plate, could not be ruled out of the box because the entire foot was not in contact with the ground; just the part that was actually in contact with the ground.

If that isn't your position, and this latest from you seems to say something different, than I (and probably CecilOne) no longer wonder where you are getting this from.

If the entire foot is clearly out of the box, and any part of it is clearly in contact with the ground at the time of contact, this is call that needs to be made. If any part of that is remotely doubtful because you are tracking the ball somewhere else, this is a call that to NEVER be guessed.

That's what I'm saying; do we agree on that?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Not the case, and if it were, only in NCAA.

Elsewhere AFAIK, "entirely touching out means none touching in"
All, please correct me if wrong.

Absolutely the case.

Here's the NCAA rule, word for word:

"At the moment of bat-ball contact, the batter may not contact the pitch when any part of her foot is touching home plate, even though she may be touching the lines of the batter's box. In addition, the batter may not contact the pitch when her entire foot is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box."

Note - the ENTIRE FOOT is touching the ground.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Absolutely the case.

Here's the NCAA rule, word for word:

"At the moment of bat-ball contact, the batter may not contact the pitch when any part of her foot is touching home plate, even though she may be touching the lines of the batter's box. In addition, the batter may not contact the pitch when her entire foot is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batter's box."

Note - the ENTIRE FOOT is touching the ground.

That is poor wording that I've raised for years. It should read, "when the entire part of her foot touching the ground is completely outside the lines of the batter's box.