yet another pitching question....

[CajunNewBlue]

Had this play this past weekend....nfhs ruleset

pitcher is on the rubber, hands apart, looking to her dugout getting her signal. Batter asks for time, does NOT get time granted and steps out of the box. pitcher then closes her hands, pauses and then steps forward with non-pivot foot to deliver the pitch..... and she then stops everything.

U1 base umpire signals illegal pitch, plate umpire also calls illegal pitch. conference ensues after a short discussion with the defensive coach. all 3 umpires agree with illegal pitch and call stands and play continues.

upon further review (discussion in locker room)... UIC says crew got it wrong.

I just cant move past the words in the rulebook "once the pitches hands are closed" the batter steps out and causes the pitcher to violate, its a no pitch call and a reset.

I cant find a instance or reference to " if the pitcher hands are NOT closed"

any help and rule references and or interpretations.would be appreciated

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

Had this play this past weekend....

pitcher is on the rubber, hands apart, looking to her dugout getting her signal. Batter asks for time, does NOT get time granted and steps out of the box.

I would suggest at this point, you hold up the pitcher and tell the batter to return to the box. 10 seconds = strike; direct batter to the box.

pitcher then closes her hands, pauses and then steps forward with non-pivot foot to deliver the pitch..... and she then stops everything.

Not a problem, you have your hand up and the pitcher is just following your direction.

[CajunNewBlue]

while I appreciate the suggestion for "what should have happened... mechanically"... was looking for a ruling based retort.

[Manny A]

Assuming NFHS, it's my opinion that the reason rule 7-3-1 mentions the pitcher's hands being together is that typically that's when the PU would not grant a batter Time. While the hands are separated and the pitcher is taking too long looking in for the sign, the PU will grant Time to the batter then.

So I wouldn't get hung up with those words. The intent of 7-3-1 is to excuse the pitcher's violation if she reacts to the batter's violation. If you are convinced that's why the pitcher stopped her delivery, then the No Pitch ruling is appropriate. The pitcher should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Now, if the pitcher had plenty of time to see the batter leave the box and the PU not grant Time, she should be able to just stand there and let the 10-second delay take place, or just deliver the pitch and have it ruled a Strike, regardless where it goes. If she still does something illegal at that point, an IP may be appropriate since she should know the rule.

[CajunNewBlue]

for clarification... I was base umpire on this job. during the umpire conference .. plate umpire walked up and said "we got an illegal pitch? right guys?".. my retort was "pitchers hands were not together when batter stepped out, pitcher needs to pitch" U3 nodded his head in agreement, plate umpire agreed also (I should hope so, as he had his darn arm stuck out)... we broke and plate umpire confirmed the call.

of course in the locker room, stories and opinions changed.

I still stand by the call.

I know Fed doesn't want the cat and mouse game tween the batter and the pitch.
UIC gave his interpretation......BUT does everything have to be against the offense? I mean if the pitcher delivers the ball in the scenario ... even if its 20 feet above the batters head we call a strike.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

...BUT does everything have to be against the offense?...

It is not our job to try to ad hoc balance the scales.

Besides, in your scenario it was the batter that defied the umpire by stepping out after time was not granted.

If I had been PU, this would have been a no pitch and a warning to the batter.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

It is not our job to try to ad hoc balance the scales.

Besides, in your scenario it was the batter that defied the umpire by stepping out after time was not granted.

If I had been PU, this would have been a no pitch and a warning to the batter.

I would have done the same. Pitchers tend to put extreme focus on the catcher's mitt and not realize what else is going on around the plate. I've had pitchers who start their motion while I still have my hand up, even while I'm away from behind the catcher. It's entirely conceivable that this pitcher didn't really notice the batter until after she started her motion, and aborted her delivery then. That's why I mentioned before that the benefit of the doubt should go to her.

[Andy]

I'm with Manny and Dakota on this one.

No way am I penalizing a pitcher for the inappropriate actions of the batter

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

I still stand by the call.

I know Fed doesn't want the cat and mouse game tween the batter and the pitch.
UIC gave his interpretation......BUT does everything have to be against the offense? I mean if the pitcher delivers the ball in the scenario ... even if its 20 feet above the batters head we call a strike.

Just curious ... do you come from baseball first? I ask because this is a very baseball way of looking at things.

Softball has time limits on the batter and pitcher to prevent any cat-mouse stuff. That is why we don't, generally, stop things if the batter requests time out simply because they feel the pitcher is taking too long. Cat-mouse shouldn't happen in softball.

That said ... while you can support your IP ruling with the rulebook, you'll find that MOST umpires will do as Dakota, Manny, or Andy stated. Rule no pitch, reset. If this happens more than once, many (including self) will also remind batter (or possibly coaches) that the batter should not step out once they've stepped in, that they only have 10 seconds to get in there and the pitcher only has 20 to pitch.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Just curious ... do you come from baseball first? I ask because this is a very baseball way of looking at things.



That said ... while you can support your IP ruling with the rulebook, you'll find that MOST umpires will do as Dakota, Manny, or Andy stated. Rule no pitch, reset.

no... I am not from a baseball background per se'.. i have done baseball years and years ago.

once again I am concerned when umpires take it upon themselves to mechanically negate the rules by hiding behind what is know as "game management". instead of just letting the game happen and make rulings for violations when they occur.

ok before y'all flip out at my flippant and obviously antagonistic statement regarding game management. I embrace game management and use it quite often in almost every game.

in my original posting issue.... I just happen to disagree that the umpires should manage this scenario.
why?
because then I would be right.

I will just join the masses and wish nfhs had a better ruleset.

[k-blue]

NFHS baseball has a rule that prevent the "Cat and Mouse" play as well.
Although I have seen many umpires mis-apply this rule and still call a "Balk" if the pitcher stops his delivery.

6-2-4 Balk. If there is a runner or runners, any of the following acts by a pitcher while he is touching the pitcher’s plate is a balk:

d. failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery;
1. If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery because the batter steps out of the box (a) with one foot or (b) with both feet or (c) holds up his hand to request “Time,” it shall not be a balk. In (a) and (c), there is no penalty on either the batter or the pitcher. The umpire shall call “Time” and begin play anew. In (b), a strike shall be called on the batter for violation of 7-3-1. In (a), (b) and (c), if the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains live.
Thus, two strikes are called on the batter in (b). If the umpire judges the batter’s action to be a deliberate attempt to create a balk, he will penalize according to 3-3-1n.

On two occasions, I have called two strikes on the batter on the first pitch. Had to send a coach to the bus the first time.

[CecilOne]

https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/