Fair-Foul Question and other questions

[IRISHMAFIA]

Need a definition, here you go:

Projected substitution/re-entry - A reported change to take effect at a future point in time (i.e., not immediately).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Need a definition, here you go:

Projected substitution/re-entry - A reported change to take effect at a future point in time (i.e., not immediately).

Unfortunately, even that doesn't nail it down. "take effect" means one thing to chap and Dakota, and something else to me and whoever else will only take the next batter (or current runners) changes. And both sides are reasonable interpretations.

I see Chap's and Dakota's argument on this. I don't agree with it, but I also don't insist the way I see it is the only possible way to see it (or vice versa of course).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Unfortunately, even that doesn't nail it down. "take effect" means one thing to chap and Dakota, and something else to me and whoever else will only take the next batter (or current runners) changes. And both sides are reasonable interpretations.

I see Chap's and Dakota's argument on this. I don't agree with it, but I also don't insist the way I see it is the only possible way to see it (or vice versa of course).

"take effect" can only mean one thing, whatever it is, is now, not later. IMO, arguing that point is going beyond the argument for argument's sake, and that is something with which I am familiar

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

"take effect" can only mean one thing, whatever it is, is now, not later. IMO, arguing that point is going beyond the argument for argument's sake, and that is something with which I am familiar

The substitution does take effect immediately when it is announced. The substitute player is now the player legally in the lineup at the time, thus the substitution has taken effect. If a player other than that player comes to bat, we have an issue.

One other thing to consider. Does it say anywhere in the rules, except in the portion of the rules pertaining to pitchers and catcher for the purposes of a courtesy runner, that a player must actually participate in the game after substituting into the game?

Let's look at one scenario.

R1 on first, two outs. 0-0 count on S4, who has been announced as the substitute for B4. R1 is called out for leaving early. Now S4's coach comes out and wants to put B4 back into the game. Has S4 ever entered the game? Did she actually participate? Even though S4 never actually participate in any play (the out, and no pitch mean she was never actually participating any an aspect of the game), she did use an entry into the game.

(I actually had something similar to this happen last season, and the coach tried arguing that she never entered the game).

[robbie]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

(I actually had something similar to this happen last season, and the coach tried arguing that she never entered the game).

Chapmaja:
Where do you ump? I really have to go watch some of these games.
I've been doing fast pitch for 15 years and you see more odd occurances every weekend that I have experienced in my career......

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

The substitution does take effect immediately when it is announced. The substitute player is now the player legally in the lineup at the time, thus the substitution has taken effect...

Exactly.

I have no issue with umpires using the NCAA interpretation in non-NCAA games. It is not wrong. I just don't view the rule as requiring that, and it wastes time.

[MD Longhorn]

I think it's a little funny that Chap is arguing with Mike, while Mike is supporting Chap's side of the discussion...

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Need a definition, here you go:

Projected substitution/re-entry - A reported change to take effect at a future point in time (i.e., not immediately).

2015 casebook, situation 3.3.2 Situation B

Coach of Team A tells the plate umpire that L. Jones will bat for B. Smith and that J. Johnson will replace D. Lee in left field the next time on defense.

Ruling: The umpire shall accept the substitution of L. Jones for B. Smith. However, No substitution shall be made until which time as the substitution is actually made. Therefore, the umpire will tell the coach of Team A to wait until his/her team is on defense before reporting any defensive substitution.

What this case play does not cover is where in the order the substitution of L. Jones for B. Smith is. We only know this is when the team is on offense. It can be inferred by the wording the team is on offense when the two substitution requests are made.


Also, where in the rulebook is your definition of Projected substitution, as I have yet to find that anywhere in the rulebook.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

2015 casebook, situation 3.3.2 Situation B

Coach of Team A tells the plate umpire that L. Jones will bat for B. Smith and that J. Johnson will replace D. Lee in left field the next time on defense.

Ruling: The umpire shall accept the substitution of L. Jones for B. Smith. However, No substitution shall be made until which time as the substitution is actually made. Therefore, the umpire will tell the coach of Team A to wait until his/her team is on defense before reporting any defensive substitution.

What this case play does not cover is where in the order the substitution of L. Jones for B. Smith is. We only know this is when the team is on offense. It can be inferred by the wording the team is on offense when the two substitution requests are made.

For as much as we know from the OP, maybe Lee just completed her turn at bat and the coach mistakenly included the bold portion which may actually been irrelevant to the change being made.

Because a coach can (and they do) change their mind, I would inform the coach to submit that change when s/he desires it to occur and not be specific about it needing to be the next half of the inning.

Also, where in the rulebook is your definition of Projected substitution, as I have yet to find that anywhere in the rulebook.

It is in the Micro Management rule book.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

For as much as we know from the OP, maybe Lee just completed her turn at bat and the coach mistakenly included the bold portion which may actually been irrelevant to the change being made.

Because a coach can (and they do) change their mind, I would inform the coach to submit that change when s/he desires it to occur and not be specific about it needing to be the next half of the inning.





It is in the Micro Management rule book.

Fair enough about the micromanagement rulebook.

Also, I have NEVER seen a coach change their mind

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Also, I have NEVER seen a coach change their mind

Given the number of incredibly bizarre things that seem to happen in your games... this stuns me.

I have definitely seen coaches both TRY to change their mind ... and succeed in changing their minds.

The most dramatic "try" to change their mind I can recall. About 15 years ago. Home Coach, who is leading, tells one of my umpires #10 for #4 as they are switching sides for them to bat. This was a semi-final of a tourney. Coach only has 10 players, and this is likely the final inning (apparently) due to time limit. #4 was due up 4th.

#1 out. #2 out. #3 hits a triple... tries to stretch it into a run - gets caught in a run-down and twists her ankle getting out. She can't continue, but all this happened so quickly that the game did not, in fact, end.

Coach tries to "unsubstitute" 4 back in for 10 so 10 can replace the injured #3. Sorry coach. You don't have 9? You forfeit. He got ejected before his assistant protested, to no avail. Other team to the final.

(And yes... after the tourney around the post-tourney umpire meal he gets told by almost everyone he should not have accepted that sub at that time.)

I've seen NUMEROUS instances of coaches succeeding in undoing a "projected" sub (not always injury ... most often a projected sub for a 4th or later batter in the inning where they didn't get to batter 4, so umpire undid the sub since they never really got there), and yes, I had a little chat with the umpire afterward.

[btw]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Given the number of incredibly bizarre things that seem to happen in your games... this stuns me.

I have definitely seen coaches both TRY to change their mind ... and succeed in changing their minds.

The most dramatic "try" to change their mind I can recall. About 165 years ago. Home Coach, who is leading, tells one of my umpires #10 for #4 as they are switching sides for them to bat. This was a semi-final of a tourney. Coach only has 10 players, and this is likely the final inning (apparently) due to time limit. #4 was due up 4th.

#1 out. #2 out. #3 hits a triple... tries to stretch it into a run - gets caught in a run-down and twists her ankle getting out. She can't continue, but all this happened so quickly that the game did not, in fact, end.

Coach tries to "unsubstitute" 4 back in for 10 so 10 can replace the injured #3. Sorry coach. You don't have 9? You forfeit. He got ejected before his assistant protested, to no avail. Other team to the final.

(And yes... after the tourney around the post-tourney umpire meal he gets told by almost everyone he should not have accepted that sub at that time.)

I've seen NUMEROUS instances of coaches succeeding in undoing a "projected" sub (not always injury ... most often a projected sub for a 4th or later batter in the inning where they didn't get to batter 4, so umpire undid the sub since they never really got there), and yes, I had a little chat with the umpire afterward.

A little off topic, but couldn't they have kept going with 8 under the shorthanded rule?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by btw

A little off topic, but couldn't they have kept going with 8 under the shorthanded rule?

Not so much off topic. The shorthanded rule hasn't existed for 165 years; the prior rule (maybe 12-15 years ago is my guess without actual reasearch) made anything less than what you started with (except the legal 10 to 9 in merging DP and DEFO, now FLEX) a forfeit.

That is still the case in NCAA.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by btw

A little off topic, but couldn't they have kept going with 8 under the shorthanded rule?

Not then.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Given the number of incredibly bizarre things that seem to happen in your games... this stuns me.

I have definitely seen coaches both TRY to change their mind ... and succeed in changing their minds.

The most dramatic "try" to change their mind I can recall. About 165 years ago. Home Coach, who is leading, tells one of my umpires #10 for #4 as they are switching sides for them to bat. This was a semi-final of a tourney. Coach only has 10 players, and this is likely the final inning (apparently) due to time limit. #4 was due up 4th.

#1 out. #2 out. #3 hits a triple... tries to stretch it into a run - gets caught in a run-down and twists her ankle getting out. She can't continue, but all this happened so quickly that the game did not, in fact, end.

Coach tries to "unsubstitute" 4 back in for 10 so 10 can replace the injured #3. Sorry coach. You don't have 9? You forfeit. He got ejected before his assistant protested, to no avail. Other team to the final.

(And yes... after the tourney around the post-tourney umpire meal he gets told by almost everyone he should not have accepted that sub at that time.)

IMO, "almost everyone" at the table was wrong. It was a legitimate change that was initiated by the coach. Let me say that again, INITIATED BY THE COACH. No one did anything wrong, not even the coach. The only questionable act was that the coach didn't have the foresight to hedge his bets to protect his team. Not smart, maybe, but certainly not illegal or inappropriate.

And it is not the umpires position to protect the coach from him/herself. You want to exercise some preventive umpiring and recognize the potential issue? Fine, remind the coach that he is exhausting his/her bench and if s/he gives you the change, take it, record it, announce it and move on with the game.