Pitching question

[Andy]

First of all...I just put this here for discussion and trying to present a different point of view on the way the rule reads.

I posted it a couple of different places because I wanted opinions and discussions from different people that may not read all of the various forums.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that you, MD, seem so closed minded on this one. Your history has suggested that of someone that sometimes questions the logic and written word of the rule(s) and points out discrepancies. This is one of those situations, in my opinion.

To address Dakota...as described to me, this pitcher did this every pitch.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

First of all...I just put this here for discussion and trying to present a different point of view on the way the rule reads.

I posted it a couple of different places because I wanted opinions and discussions from different people that may not read all of the various forums.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that you, MD, seem so closed minded on this one. Your history has suggested that of someone that sometimes questions the logic and written word of the rule(s) and points out discrepancies. This is one of those situations, in my opinion.

To address Dakota...as described to me, this pitcher did this every pitch.

Sorry if I'm appearing to be closed-minded on this one. It's just that the motion you've described seems pretty clearly illegal. You stated there was a noticable pause. That's what the pitcher is not allowed to do, once she's started.

To Dakota - the answer to your second assumption is not yes. You're talking about a person moving in 3 dimensions. There is no pause during a backswing. To put it in scientific terms - the backswing might momentarily have zero forward velocity (although not zero velocity in every direction) but it never has zero forward acceleration... while the motion described in the OP has both zero velocity and zero acceleration... a noticable pause, or a stop in the delivery.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Is a back swing legal? Yes.
Is a stop necessary to have a back swing? Yes.

So, where does the rule state how long the stop at the back of the back swing can be?

And, if you claim "immediately" means "infinitesimally small", explain how the word "immediately" clearly does NOT mean that in the look back rule.

The purpose of these pitching mechanics rules is to not have the batter be deceived as to the start of the pitch and when in the pitching motion to expect the release. Was this deceiving anyone? (e.g. Did she do this sometimes or all the time?)

I didn't read from the OP that the pitcher executed a backswing. She reached into her glove while on the plate, pulled the ball out, and then put it up against her hip for, as Andy wrote, "a noticeable pause". That's a stop in her motion, not a backswing, as I envision it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'm sort of curious as to how a pitch can start without a motion to pitch?

This is part of my problem with all rule sets. The rules and interpretations have been bastardized over the years to accommodate the pitcher. Until this began, FP was not always a pitcher's duel

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Sorry if I'm appearing to be closed-minded on this one. It's just that the motion you've described seems pretty clearly illegal. You stated there was a noticable pause. That's what the pitcher is not allowed to do, once she's started.

Rule cite?

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

To Dakota - the answer to your second assumption is not yes. You're talking about a person moving in 3 dimensions. There is no pause during a backswing. To put it in scientific terms - the backswing might momentarily have zero forward velocity (although not zero velocity in every direction) but it never has zero forward acceleration... while the motion described in the OP has both zero velocity and zero acceleration... a noticable pause, or a stop in the delivery.

Your response is, well, veering off. The issue is velocity (rearward or forward), not side-to-side, and certainly not acceleration. As you say, it will have zero forward velocity... i.e. it will be stopped as far as the motion being legislated in the rule is concerned. If you are going to go that far, there will always be SOME motion anytime the ball is being held, unless it is being held by a bronze statue.

A backswing is allowed, therefore rearward velocity is allowed. There must, therefore, be a transition from rearward to forward, during which transition, the rear/forward velocity reaches zero... i.e., it stops.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I didn't read from the OP that the pitcher executed a backswing. She reached into her glove while on the plate, pulled the ball out, and then put it up against her hip for, as Andy wrote, "a noticeable pause". That's a stop in her motion, not a backswing, as I envision it.

Do the rules define a backswing? Does it have to go past the hip?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Do the rules define a backswing? Does it have to go past the hip?

No they don't, so it leaves it to us to judge it. And I judge a pitcher removing her hand from the glove and then placing it against her hip and stopping is not a backswing. There is no element of "swing" in there.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Is a back swing legal? Yes.
Is a stop necessary to have a back swing? Yes.

So, where does the rule state how long the stop at the back of the back swing can be?

And, if you claim "immediately" means "infinitesimally small", explain how the word "immediately" clearly does NOT mean that in the look back rule.

The purpose of these pitching mechanics rules is to not have the batter be deceived as to the start of the pitch and when in the pitching motion to expect the release. Was this deceiving anyone? (e.g. Did she do this sometimes or all the time?)

Using your logic, then we allow them to come to the pitching plate with both hands together, right?

If you allow illegal pitches, you punish the pitchers who do it right.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

Using your logic, then we allow them to come to the pitching plate with both hands together, right?

Non sequitur.

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

If you allow illegal pitches, you punish the pitchers who do it right.

I'm still waiting for someone to show a clear rule (or ruling) to show that this is illegal. Unusual does not equate to illegal.

I'm not sure how I would have ruled had I been presented with this action by the pitcher without having had this discussion. I have no problem calling it illegal if it is, in fact, illegal. Show me.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Non sequitur.



I'm still waiting for someone to show a clear rule (or ruling) to show that this is illegal. Unusual does not equate to illegal.

I'm not sure how I would have ruled had I been presented with this action by the pitcher without having had this discussion. I have no problem calling it illegal if it is, in fact, illegal. Show me.

6.3.c says she must not stop. This pitcher stopped. It is illegal.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Rule cite?

The rule has been cited multiple times. Including once above by me.

Equating the infinitesimal (literally, btw) time the arm has no forward velocity with a noticeable pause is an incredible stretch to me.... but if you insist on calling them the same thing - then you've just stretched the rules to disallow backswings, not to allow the motion described in the OP. Good luck with that.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The rule has been cited multiple times. Including once above by me.

Equating the infinitesimal (literally, btw) time the arm has no forward velocity with a noticeable pause is an incredible stretch to me.... but if you insist on calling them the same thing - then you've just stretched the rules to disallow backswings, not to allow the motion described in the OP. Good luck with that.

I've seen numerous pitchers who take a large backswing that effectively stop at the top of the backswing in a kind of gathering before they begin the windmill. The stopping is very noticeable; it is merely ignored.

The only reason this is deemed illegal is because it is unusual, IMO. If mere stopping between the back motion and the starting of the forward motion was illegal, then the pitchers referenced above would also be illegal.

[jwwashburn]

So, you think stopping should be allowed?

Tell ASA to change the rule.

Since the rule says she MUST NOT STOP, this pitcher is illegal.

[Dakota]

You guys keep excerpting the rule to leave out the "forward motion" part. 6-3-C says she must not stop the forward motion. Since she has not started the forward motion, the forward motion has not stopped.

Now, if she did what was described and then just never delivered the pitch, then that clearly violates the "immediately" delivering the pitch rule 6-3-A.

Again, I don't think 6-3-C applies since the forward motion has never started. It is the forward motion that must not be stopped or reversed.

Therefore, for this to be illegal, it must be judged to be violating 6-3-A in not "immediately delivering the ball to the batter" after making a motion to pitch.

Hence, my reference to the look back rule. How long is "immediately"? The OP says "for a second" and "noticeable pause". Without seeing the pitcher, I'm having a hard time making the absolute ruling (coupled with sneering sarcasm) that some of you seem comfortable with.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You guys keep excerpting the rule to leave out the "forward motion" part. 6-3-C says she must not stop the forward motion. Since she has not started the forward motion, the forward motion has not stopped.

Now, if she did what was described and then just never delivered the pitch, then that clearly violates the "immediately" delivering the pitch rule 6-3-A.

Again, I don't think 6-3-C applies since the forward motion has never started. It is the forward motion that must not be stopped or reversed.

Therefore, for this to be illegal, it must be judged to be violating 6-3-A in not "immediately delivering the ball to the batter" after making a motion to pitch.

Hence, my reference to the look back rule. How long is "immediately"? The OP says "for a second" and "noticeable pause". Without seeing the pitcher, I'm having a hard time making the absolute ruling (coupled with sneering sarcasm) that some of you seem comfortable with.

Well, I'm certainly not using 6-3-C as the rule, since I don't think it applies at all. 6-3-A is all I need to deem this illegal.

And I think you'll get into trouble comparing the pitching and look back rules when quantifying the term "immediately". We don't allow the pitcher to stop her motion to pitch because it can put the batter at a distinct disadvantage. Is there a similar disadvantage that a runner puts on the pitcher when she doesn't advance or return immediately to a base? I don't feel there is. The amount of concentration a batter puts into the pitch as she locks and loads is much higher than what a pitcher puts into a runner who is off a base. Any slight hesitation in the pitcher's motion that isn't part of her pitch is going to disrupt the batter's concentration. She separates her hands and then puts the ball against her hip, it sounds like she's almost appearing to be looking in for a sign again.