Bench clearing brawl

[Andy]

My weekend adventure....

Traveled about 120 miles away to work a SP tournament benefitting an area Special Olympics progrram. Men's SP on Saturday, Co-Ed on Sunday. Myself and 4 others agreed to umpire for no game fees to help raise money for the SO program. As part of the Saturday program, three games were played by SO teams from the state.

I'm working my second game of the day on Sunday (co-ed), solo umpire, game is sailing along just fine. End of the third inning, two male players from opposite teams start talking smack to each other, then they are chest to chest trying to show what big men they are. I start heading out toward them to break it up when the pushing and shoving starts. I immediately eject both of them, other team members try to get them seperated as they are still yelling at each other, then I turn to my right and I have two female players taking swings at each other, then another fight erupts to my left, then it's on....

At this point, I back away from the pack and yell for somebody to call the cops. I'm making notes as to which players are fighting just in case, but at this point, niether team will have enough players left to finish. Eventually, the TD gets to the field and things settle down. I inform the TD that this game is over. He asks me how he should handle this in the bracket, I intially tell him I don't care how the bracket is handled, but this game is over and should be a double forfiet since neither team will have enough to continue. By the time the cops arrive, about 15 minutes later, one team has pretty much got in their cars and left, and the other team is still hanging around. The cops talk to everybody and don't really do anything. I give my statement to the lead officer. Then the TD asks me if I would have a problem if he kept the one team that was still there in the tournament. I told him emphatically that I would have a problem with that as they did not come onto the field with the intent to break things up, but came out swinging. he tells me OK...that's it then. TD comes back to me about 15 minutes later asking me to re-consider and he still wants to let the team continue. I tell him that if he chooses to do that, I'm leaving. The other four umpires from our group were there and agreed that they would leave as well.

Another first in my umpiring career.....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

My weekend adventure....

Traveled about 120 miles away to work a SP tournament benefitting an area Special Olympics progrram. Men's SP on Saturday, Co-Ed on Sunday. Myself and 4 others agreed to umpire for no game fees to help raise money for the SO program. As part of the Saturday program, three games were played by SO teams from the state.

I'm working my second game of the day on Sunday (co-ed), solo umpire, game is sailing along just fine. End of the third inning, two male players from opposite teams start talking smack to each other, then they are chest to chest trying to show what big men they are. I start heading out toward them to break it up when the pushing and shoving starts. I immediately eject both of them, other team members try to get them seperated as they are still yelling at each other, then I turn to my right and I have two female players taking swings at each other, then another fight erupts to my left, then it's on....

At this point, I back away from the pack and yell for somebody to call the cops. I'm making notes as to which players are fighting just in case, but at this point, niether team will have enough players left to finish. Eventually, the TD gets to the field and things settle down. I inform the TD that this game is over. He asks me how he should handle this in the bracket, I intially tell him I don't care how the bracket is handled, but this game is over and should be a double forfiet since neither team will have enough to continue. By the time the cops arrive, about 15 minutes later, one team has pretty much got in their cars and left, and the other team is still hanging around. The cops talk to everybody and don't really do anything. I give my statement to the lead officer. Then the TD asks me if I would have a problem if he kept the one team that was still there in the tournament. I told him emphatically that I would have a problem with that as they did not come onto the field with the intent to break things up, but came out swinging. he tells me OK...that's it then. TD comes back to me about 15 minutes later asking me to re-consider and he still wants to let the team continue. I tell him that if he chooses to do that, I'm leaving. The other four umpires from our group were there and agreed that they would leave as well.

Another first in my umpiring career.....

Never try to break it up as absolutely nothing good will come of it. Just step back and take numbers as good intentions may end up being awarded with injury and legal action and not to your benefit.

[MD Longhorn]

I'm conflicted on this one.

First off ... whether a team can forfeit and continue play in a tournament is COMPLETELY the TD's call ... not the umpire's. I'm very surprised he asked you. We umpire the games we're asked to umpire. Player suspensions, team suspensions, eligibility, etc are not in our purview.

That said, had he asked ME in your situation, I likely would have said I had a problem with it. Not sure I would have threatened to leave though. Just might not have even worked there again, as reinstating the team would tell me he didn't have the umpires' backs.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Andy

My weekend adventure....

Traveled about 120 miles away to work a SP tournament benefitting an area Special Olympics progrram. Men's SP on Saturday, Co-Ed on Sunday. Myself and 4 others agreed to umpire for no game fees to help raise money for the SO program. As part of the Saturday program, three games were played by SO teams from the state.

I'm working my second game of the day on Sunday (co-ed), solo umpire, game is sailing along just fine. End of the third inning, two male players from opposite teams start talking smack to each other, then they are chest to chest trying to show what big men they are. I start heading out toward them to break it up when the pushing and shoving starts. I immediately eject both of them, other team members try to get them seperated as they are still yelling at each other, then I turn to my right and I have two female players taking swings at each other, then another fight erupts to my left, then it's on....

At this point, I back away from the pack and yell for somebody to call the cops. I'm making notes as to which players are fighting just in case, but at this point, niether team will have enough players left to finish. Eventually, the TD gets to the field and things settle down. I inform the TD that this game is over. He asks me how he should handle this in the bracket, I intially tell him I don't care how the bracket is handled, but this game is over and should be a double forfiet since neither team will have enough to continue. By the time the cops arrive, about 15 minutes later, one team has pretty much got in their cars and left, and the other team is still hanging around. The cops talk to everybody and don't really do anything. I give my statement to the lead officer. Then the TD asks me if I would have a problem if he kept the one team that was still there in the tournament. I told him emphatically that I would have a problem with that as they did not come onto the field with the intent to break things up, but came out swinging. he tells me OK...that's it then. TD comes back to me about 15 minutes later asking me to re-consider and he still wants to let the team continue. I tell him that if he chooses to do that, I'm leaving. The other four umpires from our group were there and agreed that they would leave as well.

Another first in my umpiring career.....

Taking names: OK
Calling for help: OK
Declaring double forfeit: OK

After that: Not your decision.

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok I totally understand what you are all saying. Team eligibility is TD's call (and / or ASA REP if present) whether they are removed from the tournament for their actions in the game with the knock down drag out fight is their call as well, not disagreeing with that concept.

That being said, it is the umpires right to not work if they are not comfortable with the working conditions. If there is a team that is dangerous to umpire and an umpire feels unsafe due to the past actions of that team, it is absolutely within their rights to not umpire any more games at that event. Now I agree I would not "threaten" a TD with leaving, but I can absolutely see letting them know that if that team is still playing then I would not feel comfortable continueing to work games where they are playing. Small difference but I would inform them not threaten them.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Taking names: OK
Calling for help: OK
Declaring double forfeit: OK

After that: Not your decision.

No, but it's always his decision whether he stays and works or not.

And, besides, the TD asked, didn't he?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich

No, but it's always his decision whether he stays and works or not.

And, besides, the TD asked, didn't he?

Exactly. And this is exactly why I'm conflicted on it a bit. TD shouldn't have asked. (Heck, he should have done the right thing without having to consult the umpire).

[jmkupka]

I'm wondering if the TD was not asking him if he'd reconsider letting the team play (which, as you state, is not his pervue), but instead reconsidering the ejections (and resulting forfeit) which the tournament mandates results in the following game(s) being missed.

If the second case, it's of course a no-brainer.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I'm wondering if the TD was not asking him if he'd reconsider letting the team play (which, as you state, is not his pervue), but instead reconsidering the ejections (and resulting forfeit) which the tournament mandates results in the following game(s) being missed.

If the second case, it's of course a no-brainer.

Sue didn't read like that, just a weak TD.

[Andy]

A bit more background.....

The TD volunteers with the Special Olympics program in the area. He started this benefit tournament a year ago with the goal of raising some money for SO. He is not an experienced TD and is basically making it up as he goes from his tournament experience as a player.

He is also a player with the local SP league and knew quite a few of the players. One of the teams involved in the brawl was a team from the local area and the other team was from another area of the state.

I also hold a high position with our state association ASA umpire group, as some of you know. TD knew this as well...even though I was not acting as a UIC for this particular tournament, just a working umpire. That is the reason he was asking me about reinstating the team.

He was trying to be a nice guy for the teams.....I felt like I had to take a stand. The statement about leaving was not a threat...just a statement of what the consequenses of his decision would be.

[chapmaja]

I personally have no problem with anything that you did, including the statement about leaving if the team was allowed to play.

This is where the event rules need to be clear as day. The rules of the game clearly state that there is a specific number of players needed to begin the game. The event rules need to be clear that an ejected player has X consequences for the event. The TD needs to follow the rules for the event.

We had a similar issue at a HS Volleyball tourney last year. State rules clearly state that a coach ejected from a contest is removed from that day of competition. He was ejected in the first game of the day, but the team still had a minimum 3 more matches. The TD did not want to force the team to forfeit and wanted to allow a parent to coach the team. This is not allowed as it must be a school employee (or now in the state contract employee grrrr). The team had to forfeit the match he was ejected in, the next match, and their final pool play match of the day. Another school employee (the AD himself) showed up and took over the team for the bracket play portion of the event. As the 8th and lowest seed they did win the event. The coach wasn't present to see it, nor any more of his teams play that year, as he was removed as the teams coach on sight by the AD when the AD arrived. The AD ended up coaching the team the final couple weeks of the season. That was the third ejection for that coach that season. Not a coach you want working with a freshman girls volleyball team.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I'm wondering if the TD was not asking him if he'd reconsider letting the team play (which, as you state, is not his pervue), but instead reconsidering the ejections (and resulting forfeit) which the tournament mandates results in the following game(s) being missed.

If the second case, it's of course a no-brainer.

I'm thinking this had nothing to do with either. This was a tournament; meaning winning teams advance, losing teams go home (or possibly into a loser's bracket). The bracket advances with next games for teams; when there are teams that advance.

It is very much unlikely (in my experience) there was a written tournament rule requiring ejected players to sit any future games. Common league practice, common for illegal bats, maybe; doesn't happen in tournaments for misconduct.

I personally suspect the question from the TD was more along the lines of wanting a next game for the OTHER team, the one losing a game as a bye in a double forfeit, where no team advances to play the next team in the bracket. Since teams gripe about the number of games, I suspect that was all the TD was wanting to happen; leave someone to play the next game.

[CecilOne]

Would the purpose of fund raising for charity be a factor in the decisions for any of you?
If so, how?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Would the purpose of fund raising for charity be a factor in the decisions for any of you?
If so, how?

Nope.

Besides, money's already collected.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Would the purpose of fund raising for charity be a factor in the decisions for any of you?
If so, how?

Yes, I would be that much more rigid in any response or actions. Both teams go home with the admonition they may not be invited back. Also, knowing where these teams play, I would notify their respective league of their actions. I wouldn't expect a reply, but it makes them aware of a situation where a group of AA cannot control themselves at a charity event. How do you think they will react under real competitive situations?

With the inexperienced TD, he needs to learn REAL QUICK that being a "nice guy" in adult softball is a losing proposition for everyone, but the persons acting like an ass. And he needs to heed the advice of experience, but if the TD elects to be the "nice guy", the TD can do it without me.

Don't care what the situation, they are supposed to be adults and I would expect them to act like adults or go home, period.