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Sat Mar 22, 2003, 07:57pm
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Went to Hershey, Pennsylvania today to see a couple of state title games. In the AA Boys game (Sto-Rox vs Trinity) there was a bench-clearing brawl. There was some physicality just beginning, then a loose ball in front of the Trinity bench early in the fourth quarter. About six guys piled up and there was some shoving when they unpiled. The call was a held ball, Sto-Rox possession. They had to inbound right in front of the Trinity bench. A Trinity sub must have said something or did something from his seat on the bench to the player about to inbound, and the Sto-Rox player turned, karate kicked him, got in three or four punches, and the whole place erupted. Both benches cleared and there were maybe three or four separate scraps going on all over the floor.
During the time they tried to sort things out, I was supposing the game was going to end 4 on 5. I thought every bench player would be tossed along with the "karate" kid. After a big group of people consulted (PIAA director, officials, coaches, others) they ended up only tossing karate man, with some stern warnings, and a pair of Trinity FTs for the flagrant T. A couple of minutes later Sto-Rox star big man got tossed for a punch-like contact and that was it for the physicality. Sto-Rox got blown out with their only two big men ejected. Questions: What is the penalty for leaving the bench during a fight? Does the head coach get an indirect T for each player that leaves the floor? If you were officiating this game, would it have tossed more players? Any comments would be appreciated. Oh, and THIS is what I'd call poor sportsmanship.
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Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out. -- John Wooden 
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Sat Mar 22, 2003, 08:45pm
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Sat Mar 22, 2003, 08:47pm
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Ya think.
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If the coach did not leave the bench and was beckoned by the officials, that coach gets in indirect for every player that got involved (or bench personnel) that got involved in the fight. So bascially if 3 or more players left the bench, the coach is ejected with 3 indirects against him (at least). Honestly, if this happen, the coach was beckoned in my opinion. I think it only makes sense to do it that way, as long as that coach is helping and not hurting the situation. I guess the second part of that, depends on what happens after that. If the players had to go a long way to get off the bench. If the incident happen right in front of the bench, then I would have to use judgement as to who got involved directly. I guess it comes down to what I saw. I would try to eject as many that really were involved. But officials are outnumbered and it is not like football where you have a pad to write down numbers. I hope this never happens in one of my games.  Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
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Sun Mar 23, 2003, 03:47am
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One coach says the other team is "a bunch of street kids who play dirty and cheap shot".
The other coach says that the other team is "a bunch of white thugs". Both coaches should be made to disappear from high school sports! Sad,sad day! http://www.postgazette.com/highschoo...srox0323p4.asp
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Sun Mar 23, 2003, 04:18am
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WOW!!!
Can you say their was bad blood between the teams.
 Good Lord. Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
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Sun Mar 23, 2003, 10:22am
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If the state tournament officials are in the discussion, and pulling rank (although they had better know the rules it they are going to do that) you certainly can not hold the game officials responsible for any missapplications as far as the fight goes. JRut said it pretty clearly "I hope this never happens in one of my games." ~ ME TOO! Blackhawk
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There's only one thing that makes the adrenalin run as high as a packed house and a good ball game ~ Big Mule Deer! www.HuntingNanselRanch.com
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Sun Mar 23, 2003, 11:01am
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Follow-up story:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_125181_html
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Mon Mar 24, 2003, 03:08am
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I would follow the NFHS rulebook and tell the state officials to take a hike. This is the reason the rules are there. If they don't want to enforce these rules then they shouldn't put me on the game.
The NFHS rulesbook serves as a contract between both teams that are participating as to how the game will be played. Each team enters the game with the expectation that what is written there will be followed and the contract will be upheld. It is our duty as officials to make sure that this happens. Without them we have no order. If it came down to it I would walk off the court before failing to follow the rules.
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Mon Mar 24, 2003, 08:27am
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I've read several articles now, and I've seen a few quotes from state officials talking about how they wouldn't have had any players left to finish the game if they ejected everyone who came off the bench. That confuses me; both players had five in the game. Toss the fighter and all the bench personnel, and finish the game 4 v 5. The PIAA blows a lot of smoke about the importance of sportsmanship, then when they have their best chance to drive home the point, they choose to pass.
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Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out. -- John Wooden
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Mon Mar 24, 2003, 09:26am
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foulbuster
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Mon Mar 24, 2003, 10:05am
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Mon Mar 24, 2003, 10:33am
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Another question
If all players from both teams participated (bench and on-court players)in the fight, and neither team has any players left after ejections, what happens? Go with the score at the time? Double forfeit?
Comment 1: It seems typical to me that the PIAA would not enforce the NFHS rules. We get some weird rules interpretations handed down to us from Harrisburg from time to time. Comment 2: That ruling just made my job harder next year. If a game with a fight like that ever takes place, you know the coaches are going to point back to this game where the rules were not followed. PIAA has just undermined some of the authority of the officials on the court. Comment 3: Shame on PIAA for not enforcing the rules. I am sure the ruling came from the bigwigs on the side of the court and not from the men on the floor.
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Wed Mar 26, 2003, 02:03pm
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It says right in the follow up article that the decision to eject only the one player was from the people in charge, not the officials.
Since those people are my boss during the state tourney I would tend to do what they requested. (Don't get that confused with moral dilemas) [Edited by w_sohl on Mar 26th, 2003 at 01:10 PM]
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"Contact does not mean a foul, a foul means contact." -Me
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Wed Mar 26, 2003, 03:56pm
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I understand both the rules side of it, but especially the desire to be able to finish a championship game. Had they ejected everyone who left the bench, you are down to 4 on 5. Had they gone further, they could also have ejected all people in the fight, as fighting is itself a flagrant requiring ejection. It sounds like all players could have been gone, and the game could have been declared over at that point, with the score standing as it was at that point.
The rules driven result is not where you want to be in a state final. It may work well in the regular season, but you would not want your championship game ended at the 6 minute mark of the first quarter, or by forcing a team to play 4 v 5 for more than 3/4s of a state championship game. Regular season - bounce em all and call it a night. I think it is important that the follow up action also occur, and if there is any film of the incident, I hope it is examined closely to get the facts right before handing out judgment.
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