Interference?

[MD Longhorn]

From another board...

Runners on second and third, less than two outs. Batter bunts the ball down the first base line. The ball is rolling in foul territory, and just as the first baseman reaches down to touch it to make it a foul ball, the batter-runner runs by the first baseman and pushes him down to the ground. First baseman can no longer touch the ball as it continues to roll foul, and then the ball reaches and touches the inside corner of the first base bag after the batter-runner has overrun and touched the bag. Both runners score on the play.

What have you got? (Post ruleset with your answer)

[tcannizzo]

I'll take a stab at it.
ASA
At a minimum, I have an ejected participant for unsportsmanlike conduct, i.e. "pushing to the ground".

8.7.Q / RS 13 requires possession of the ball, which we do not have in this case. And as much as I disagree with that, it seems like we have a live ball that became fair allowing the runs to score and a substitute runner at 1B.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

From another board...

Runners on second and third, less than two outs. Batter bunts the ball down the first base line. The ball is rolling in foul territory, and just as the first baseman reaches down to touch it to make it a foul ball, the batter-runner runs by the first baseman and pushes him down to the ground. First baseman can no longer touch the ball as it continues to roll foul, and then the ball reaches and touches the inside corner of the first base bag after the batter-runner has overrun and touched the bag. Both runners score on the play.

What have you got? (Post ruleset with your answer)

Batted ball is fair until foul, so the BR impeded the fielder trying to field a batted ball.

BR is no longer in the game after the UC push.

[MD Longhorn]

I think the heart of the issue has nothing to do with the push and whether it's malicious or not, so we'll probably be more productive ignoring that part.

Cecil - if it's interference, it's dead at the moment of interference ... so it never became fair.

My initial answer was foul ball. TC has me doubting myself now.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I think the heart of the issue has nothing to do with the push and whether it's malicious or not, so we'll probably be more productive ignoring that part.

Cecil - if it's interference, it's dead at the moment of interference ... so it never became fair.

Yes to both.

[tcannizzo]

Upon further review, I am going to modify my answer.
Rule 1 Definitions: Foul Ball
D. While over foul territory, an offensive player interferes with a defensive player attempting to field a batted ball.

This comes back to what "play" would have been made if F3 got the ball at that point. None. So it is not INT.

7.6.K only allows INT on a foul fly ball.
Contradicted/muddied by 8.2.F.1: When the batter-runner interferes with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball.

So, Foul Ball, with an ejected participant.

[MD Longhorn]

I don't see an equivalent in NFHS or NCAA (unless I'm blind).

[MD Longhorn]

Oops. NCAA 11.5 - Foul Ball
A legally batted ball that:
11.5.7 Is in foul territory when a base runner in foul territory interferes with a defensive player's attempt to field a batted ball.

OK... just need NFHS now.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Rich Ives on the Baseball Forum addressed this in a manner that I think would also be applicable to fast pitch softball and baseball under all rule sets (ASA, USSSA, NFHS, NCAA, and OBR).

1) The batted ball is not a fly ball.

2) The ball is neither a Foul Ball or a Fair Ball just prior to the contact between B/R-1 and F3 who was attempting to make a play on the Ball.

3) The Ball was touching in Foul Territory when B/R-1 made contact with F3. who was attempting to make a play on the Ball.

4) B/R-1 has committed Interference with F3. The Ball becomes Dead immediately. B/R/-1 is out because of committing Interference. All runners return to the bases they occupied at the time of the B/R-1's Interference.

5) B/R-1 can be ejected for Malicious Contact and/or Unsportsmanlike Conduct in some rules sets.

MTD, Sr.

[tcannizzo]

2) The ball is neither a Foul Ball or a Fair Ball just prior to the contact between B/R-1 and F3 who was attempting to make a play on the Ball.

There are only two definitions in the books that I own, a fair ball and a foul ball. What is the third definition? And what book is it in?

4) B/R-1 has committed Interference with F3. The Ball becomes Dead immediately. B/R/-1 is out because of committing Interference. All runners return to the bases they occupied at the time of the B/R-1's Interference.

The definition of "play" includes an attempt to retire an offensive player.
What "play" would occur by touching a ground ball in foul territory?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

There are only two definitions in the books that I own, a fair ball and a foul ball. What is the third definition? And what book is it in?



The definition of "play" includes an attempt to retire an offensive player.
What "play" would occur by touching a ground ball in foul territory?

Item (2): A ball that is rolling on the ground along the 1B Foul Line in Foul Territory between HP and 1B. At what point do you judge it to be a Fair Ball or a Foul Ball? Since this is the Softball Forum read NFHS Softball R2-S20-A1 and R2-25-A1; NCAA Softball Rules, ASA, and USSSA rules read the same as the NFHS Softball Rules.


Item (4): Would not a defensive player attempting to make a Ball, that is neither Fair nor Foul, a Foul Ball an attempt to play the Ball?

MTD, Sr.


2-20-1 and 2-25-1

[MD Longhorn]

Softball (at least ASA and NCAA) has addressed this specifically in their definition of foul ball, and there is no out here. Baseball has not and apparently this is an out (Sure on OBR and NFHS, not clear on NCAA yet).

A still moving ball that has not been contacted yet is neither fair nor foul.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Upon further review, I am going to modify my answer.
Rule 1 Definitions: Foul Ball
D. While over foul territory, an offensive player interferes with a defensive player attempting to field a batted ball.

This comes back to what "play" would have been made if F3 got the ball at that point. None. So it is not INT.

7.6.K only allows INT on a foul fly ball.
Contradicted/muddied by 8.2.F.1: When the batter-runner interferes with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball.

So, Foul Ball, with an ejected participant.

The only pdf rulebook I have here is 2005. It's definition of rule 1 reads while over foul territory, a RUNNER interferes with. Assuming you're quoting a more current version, this solves some of the problem in that thread. 8-2-F is still a problem. Does 8-7-J still say fair batted ball?
My biggest problem remains that if you don't just call this a foul ball, it's incredibly weird that you do still call it a foul ball when the runner on third does exactly the same thing. And I can't believe anyone is seriously advocating for actually calling it a fair ball on the field.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Item (2): A ball that is rolling on the ground along the 1B Foul Line in Foul Territory between HP and 1B. At what point do you judge it to be a Fair Ball or a Foul Ball?

When it is touched or has settled.
Or when an offensive player interferes with a defensive player attempting to field a batted ball while over foul territory.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Since this is the Softball Forum read NFHS Softball R2-S20-A1 and R2-25-A1; NCAA Softball Rules, ASA, and USSSA rules read the same as the NFHS Softball Rules.

Here is the complete ASA 2014 Text:
FOUL BALL: A batted ball that:
A. Settles or is touched (not caught) on or over foul territory between home and first base or between home and third base.
B. Bounds or rolls past first or third base on or over foul territory.
C. While over foul territory, touches the person, attached or detached equipment or clothing of a player or an umpire, orany object foreign to the natural ground.
D. While over foul territory, an offensive player interferes with a defensive player attempting to field a batted ball.
E. First hits the ground over foul territory beyond first or third base.
F. Touches the batter or the bat in the batter's hand(s) a second time while the batter is within the batter's box

NHFS has one additional text, but that is not the crux of this issue.

They both define a foul ball the same, which is the way I read the OP.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Item (4): Would not a defensive player attempting to make a Ball, that is neither Fair nor Foul, a Foul Ball an attempt to play the Ball?

There is no such thing as an attempt to play the Ball.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by youngump

Does 8-7-J still say fair batted ball?

ASA 2014
8.7.J, When a runner interferes:
1. With a fielder attempting to field a batted fair ball or a foul fly ball, or
2. With a fielder attempting to throw the ball, or
3. With a thrown ball.