Ball hits a tree

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by BretMan

A ground rule can't supersede a book rule. The book rule is that if a fair batted ball becomes dead and unplayable it's a two-base award.

I've never heard that before. Well, I take that back; I know that if there is a book rule to cover a situation, you cannot use a ground rule to supercede it.

But if a book rule doesn't exist for the situation, then a ground rule must be created, and the ground rule can pretty much say whatever it wants as long as it's fair and equitable. There's nothing in the book that says all ground rules have to have the same base awards as the closest book rule to it.

[Dakota]

I think you guys are making this too hard. "Can't supersede a book rule" means simply that.

A ground rule cannot change the rule for a situation the book covers.

League and local rules can do that, but not ground rules.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you guys are making this too hard. "Can't supersede a book rule" means simply that.

A ground rule cannot change the rule for a situation the book covers.

I agree with you. But I think Bret's point was that a ground rule's EFFECT should not conflict with a book rule's EFFECT for a similar situation.

His argument: When a fair batted ball is ruled dead because it got stuck in a fence, bounced over it, etc., the award is two bases. So the two-base award should also apply for any ground rule that is required. You cannot have ground rules that award only one base or three bases on fair batted balls. I don't believe that's true.

[BretMan]

Can anyone illustrate for me a circumstance where you would have a ground rule single or ground rule triple?

[MD Longhorn]

I have a ground rule triple example. One field I used to umpire on was at a park. In right field, about 250 feet out, the ground fell away (downward slope) toward a ravine. If you hit it past a spray painted line out there on the ground, it was a ground rule triple. No fence on that part of the outfield.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I have a ground rule triple example. One field I used to umpire on was at a park. In right field, about 250 feet out, the ground fell away (downward slope) toward a ravine. If you hit it past a spray painted line out there on the ground, it was a ground rule triple. No fence on that part of the outfield.

Why wouldn't that just be a GR double for a ground roller or a HR if it cleared on the fly? What is special about a painted line instead of a fence that would mean this should be a triple?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Can anyone illustrate for me a circumstance where you would have a ground rule single or ground rule triple?

True story: Our Little League Junior League baseball team played on a visiting field that had no outfield fence. It was all-you-can-get when the ball was hit past the outfielders for the most part. However, deep in left field, there were some woods that basically ran perpendicular to the left field line. In the left field corner, the woods were probably 350 feet away, and ran further away from home as it went from left to right.

We had a ground rule to prevent fielders from running into the woods that if a fair batted ball bounced into them from the foul line to essentially left-center, it would be killed and the batter would be awarded three bases. From left-center and beyond, it would be a four-base award. The theory was that if there were no woods in those areas, the batter would probably get a triple or a home run by the time the left fielder or center fielder retrieved the ball and threw it back in. It was umpire judgment which "wedge" the ball entered the woods. Obviously, anything in flight into the woods was a four-base award.

I've never seen a field where an anomaly could be dealt with using a one-base-award ground rule. But that doesn't mean it cannot be allowed as you surmise.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

True story: Our Little League Junior League baseball team played on a visiting field that had no outfield fence. It was all-you-can-get when the ball was hit past the outfielders for the most part. However, deep in left field, there were some woods that basically ran perpendicular to the left field line. In the left field corner, the woods were probably 350 feet away, and ran further away from home as it went from left to right.

We had a ground rule to prevent fielders from running into the woods that if a fair batted ball bounced into them from the foul line to essentially left-center, it would be killed and the batter would be awarded three bases. From left-center and beyond, it would be a four-base award. The theory was that if there were no woods in those areas, the batter would probably get a triple or a home run by the time the left fielder or center fielder retrieved the ball and threw it back in. It was umpire judgment which "wedge" the ball entered the woods. Obviously, anything in flight into the woods was a four-base award.

I've never seen a field where an anomaly could be dealt with using a one-base-award ground rule. But that doesn't mean it cannot be allowed as you surmise.

As a baseball umpire, I wouldn't allow that.

You can set a dead ball area/line, but once you do the rules take precedence. That, by rule, is a two-base award in baseball.

Perhaps softball is different. I actually thought this was posted on the baseball board until I looked up and saw "Softball" in the forum link.

[BretMan]

Mike and Manny: You established a dead ball area, be it a chalk line, imaginary line or a bush.

What is the rule when a fair batted ball bounces into a dead ball area?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rich

You can set a dead ball area/line, but once you do the rules take precedence. That, by rule, is a two-base award in baseball.

We never set a dead ball area/line for the rest of the outfield that wasn't fenced in, so why should we have done so with the woods?

And I've seen both in baseball and softball fields where there is no fence in the outfield, and we play all-you-can-get if the ball just goes and goes.

Most rule sets I'm familiar with set no max limit on how far a fence can extend from home plate (ASA is an exception). Most books list a recommended distance. Even OBR says fences can be "XXX feet or more". So if a field has no fence, why the need for a line?