Ball hits a tree

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Also, what is the NFHS ruling on this because I will be at a couple fields next spring that will have this issue, but over the third base line on the infield.

Wait ... REALLY? You have a HIGH SCHOOL field that has a tree overhanging the third base line in the INFIELD? Am I misreading this?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Wait ... REALLY? You have a HIGH SCHOOL field that has a tree overhanging the third base line in the INFIELD? Am I misreading this?

We have a number of high schools who use city park fields. While I can't think of one that does have an obstruction, I wouldn't think such a thing would be unheard of at all. Not all states can afford to spend $60 million on high school sports stadiums with built-in cracks!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

We have a number of high schools who use city park fields. While I can't think of one that does have an obstruction, I wouldn't think such a thing would be unheard of at all. Not all states can afford to spend $60 million on high school sports stadiums with built-in cracks!

I get that all games are not played on expensive parks. But I honestly cannot even imagine a field where there were trees overhanging fair ground in the INFIELD. No level of ball could really be played on that field. Tee-ball I suppose. It doesn't take $60M to cut down a tree.

[Andy]

I work a HS tournament every year at small town school that uses both of their practice fields to play tournament games on.

On one of the fields there is a large tree outside the fence on the first base side where the tree branches overhang the field in foul territory starting just past first base and going back along the fence for twenty feet or so. No part of the tree overhangs fair ball ground.

Our ground rule is that if the ball touches the tree, it becomes a foul ball and dead.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

I work a HS tournament every year at small town school that uses both of their practice fields to play tournament games on.

On one of the fields there is a large tree outside the fence on the first base side where the tree branches overhang the field in foul territory starting just past first base and going back along the fence for twenty feet or so. No part of the tree overhangs fair ball ground.

Our ground rule is that if the ball touches the tree, it becomes a foul ball and dead.

I play on one with a tree maybe 10 feet shy of the home run fence, planted inches from the Dead Ball fence on the first base side. Limbs overhang about a third of foul ground. Our ground rule matches yours.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I get that all games are not played on expensive parks. But I honestly cannot even imagine a field where there were trees overhanging fair ground in the INFIELD. No level of ball could really be played on that field. Tee-ball I suppose. It doesn't take $60M to cut down a tree.

Agree. A tree that close to the players is just downright dangerous, not only from batted balls that ricochet off of it, but also falling branches, potential lightning strikes, etc. Assuming a normal-sized field with adequate foul-territory spacing, you're talking about a huge tree if it has branches that overhang that far! I personally wouldn't call a game on that field because it's essentially unplayable.

At the very least, someone should cut back those branches.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Wait ... REALLY? You have a HIGH SCHOOL field that has a tree overhanging the third base line in the INFIELD? Am I misreading this?

No, you are not mis-reading. The JV field does have a tree which overhangs the area near 3rd base.

The ground rule we used for that was a ball that hits the tree is a foul ball, no matter where it lands. This was the ground rule of the home team and it was never argued.

The problem on the city park field is the tree extends over fair territory in such a way around the left field corner that a ball could be prevented from 1) going over the fence 2) going foul (slicing hit), or 3) being caught.

I have not seen a league rule on this, and since I only umpire part time in the league, I had to go by what I was told by the other umpire, redo.


I'm trying to remember what the rule is at Tropicana field for balls hitting the catwalk. IIRC if it hits certain ones it is a home run. I'm not sure what the rule is if it hits the ones closer to the plate though.

[Manny A]

There are four catwalks at the Trope. The two lower ones are furthest from home, and any fair batted ball that hits them or anything suspended from them is a home run.

The next one closer to the plate is partially in fair territory, and the closest one is completely in fair grounds. If a ball hits those in fair territory, it's treated as if it didn't hit anything and is judged fair or foul when it lands or is touched by a fielder. If caught, it's an out. If the ball gets stuck up there, it's a ground rule double. A ball that hits the foul portion of the second catwalk is dead and cannot be caught.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

No, you are not mis-reading. The JV field does have a tree which overhangs the area near 3rd base.

The ground rule we used for that was a ball that hits the tree is a foul ball, no matter where it lands. This was the ground rule of the home team and it was never argued.

Why not use the book rule so that you have an accurate grounds rule?

[BretMan]

Sure, if a team trys to tell you their field has a ground rule that doesn't jibe with the rule book...just say "no".

Earlier this year I had games on a field with an electrical wire running partly through live ball area in the outfield. The home team's coach tells me that if a batted ball hits the wire it's a dead ball.

So I ask him, "Then what? Where do you place the batter?".

He tells me first base. I asked what the base award is for other runners already on base. He says, "Ummm, I'm not sure. I've never seen a ball hit the wire before".

I told him that there's no such thing as a "ground rule single". A ground rule can't supersede a book rule. The book rule is that if a fair batted ball becomes dead and unplayable it's a two-base award. That's what we went with...it never came into play.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I told him that there's no such thing as a "ground rule single". A ground rule can't supersede a book rule. The book rule is that if a fair batted ball becomes dead and unplayable it's a two-base award. That's what we went with...it never came into play.

I don't think this is quite right. If supersede means can't create any situation different from the book rules, then what can ground rules do? Merely define dead ball territory?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I told him that there's no such thing as a "ground rule single".

Not true

A ground rule can't supersede a book rule.

Correct, but ground rules are there to provide guidance when something happens that is not in the rulebook but is possibly common because of a quirk at the GROUNDS at which you are playing.

The book rule is that if a fair batted ball becomes dead and unplayable it's a two-base award. That's what we went with...it never came into play.

A) To which book rule do you refer (there are several similar ... wondering which you're meaning here)...
B) how would hitting a wire suspended above cause it to become dead... OR unplayable?

Seems to me a wire across a field is EXACTLY the kind of situation that needs to be addressed by a ground rule.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by BretMan

A ground rule can't supersede a book rule. The book rule is that if a fair batted ball becomes dead and unplayable it's a two-base award.

I've never heard that before. Well, I take that back; I know that if there is a book rule to cover a situation, you cannot use a ground rule to supercede it.

But if a book rule doesn't exist for the situation, then a ground rule must be created, and the ground rule can pretty much say whatever it wants as long as it's fair and equitable. There's nothing in the book that says all ground rules have to have the same base awards as the closest book rule to it.

[Dakota]

I think you guys are making this too hard. "Can't supersede a book rule" means simply that.

A ground rule cannot change the rule for a situation the book covers.

League and local rules can do that, but not ground rules.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you guys are making this too hard. "Can't supersede a book rule" means simply that.

A ground rule cannot change the rule for a situation the book covers.

I agree with you. But I think Bret's point was that a ground rule's EFFECT should not conflict with a book rule's EFFECT for a similar situation.

His argument: When a fair batted ball is ruled dead because it got stuck in a fence, bounced over it, etc., the award is two bases. So the two-base award should also apply for any ground rule that is required. You cannot have ground rules that award only one base or three bases on fair batted balls. I don't believe that's true.