If a tree falls and... If a foul occurs and...

[psycho_ref]

If a foul occurs and noone sees it, hears it, feels it, or tastes it, noone on the bench, noone through T.V., noone in the gym, except the referee. Not even the two who were involved, I ask you this, should it be called???

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by psycho_ref
If a foul occurs and noone sees it, hears it, feels it, or tastes it, noone on the bench, noone through T.V., noone in the gym, except the referee. Not even the two who were involved, I ask you this, should it be called???

You know what? All I can tell you is this.

Go out and do your absolute best. Those who like it, great. Those who don't, so what.

[fonzzy07]

Originally posted by psycho_ref
If a foul occurs and noone sees it, hears it, feels it, or tastes it, noone on the bench, noone through T.V., noone in the gym, except the referee. Not even the two who were involved, I ask you this, should it be called???

ARE you serious, huum this sounds like some fan who is unhappy. Any ref knows you go out and call what you see, as long as you are working hard and calling what you see I don't think anyone can complain, well they can but shouldn't.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by psycho_ref
If a foul occurs and noone sees it, hears it, feels it, or tastes it, noone on the bench, noone through T.V., noone in the gym, except the referee. Not even the two who were involved, I ask you this, should it be called???

You answered your own question when you said the referee saw it. According to the rules, that means it should be called. What's your point?

[chrs_schuster]

[B]

Originally posted by psycho_ref
If a foul occurs and noone sees it, hears it, feels it, or tastes it, noone on the bench, noone through T.V., noone in the gym, except the referee. Not even the two who were involved, I ask you this, should it be called???

HUH? Are you a ref? If so, where? I would really like to know, so I can stay far far away!

[Raymond]

When you're making the call you how do you know if no one else saw it? You have your integrity to think about.

Here are 2 anedoctal stories just to let you know you should always do the right thing when you're on the court.

1) A friend of mine was in their 2nd year of officiating and doing a little kids Rec League game out in the boonies. Turns out an NBA ref was there to watch his child play. After the game NBA Ref came up to my friend, introduced himself, and said he would be glad to come out one day and evaluate. My friend emailed him their schedule and one day out the blue NBA Ref showed up at what has to be the worst adult rec league in the area. The 2 became good friends and now my friend in just their 5th season of officiating has worked their way into 4 NCAA conferences, including one D1.

2) Some of the local HS games are televised on the city educational channels (with announcers). I'm working a BV (3-man) in the trail. A1 drives to the hole. As A1 passes the free throw line I whistle A2 for a block b/c in an attempt to slide over and set a screen he got there late and his left foot tripped defender B1. The home crowd and coach react in bewilderment at my call. A2 walks over to me in front of the table and says "Good call Ref". When I watch the videotape of the game the play-by-play man reacts in the same bewilderment at my call and says I made a phantom call. Then a few seconds later his partner says "yeah but the player just walked up to the ref and said good call; guess the only 2 people in the gym who knew it was a good call were the player and the ref". Close examination of the replay also verified that I made the correct call.

Moral of the stories: Always do the right thing, you never know who's watching or who's filming.

[ChuckElias]

The original question reminds me of (sorry Padgett) an international soccer match a couple years ago. I can't remember if it was in the World Cup or the Olympics. But the ref called a penalty kick in the final minutes of the match, b/c (he claimed) the player was held while dribbling toward the goal. The guy made the penalty kick and his team won.

Well, the ref was blasted by everyone. Papers, TV, the guy became a national enemy of the team that lost. Then, about 3 weeks later, one newspaper ran a picture from an angle that no one had seen. And it clearly showed the guy's jersey being held and pulled while he was trying to dribble.

Nobody in the stadium or on TV saw the foul. But the ref did. He called it, took a lot of heat, and then was vindicated.

I think that might help to answer your question. Anybody remember what game that was?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
The original question reminds me of (sorry Padgett) an international soccer match a couple years ago. I can't remember if it was in the World Cup or the Olympics. But the ref called a penalty kick in the final minutes of the match, b/c (he claimed) the player was held while dribbling toward the goal. The guy made the penalty kick and his team won.

Well, the ref was blasted by everyone. Papers, TV, the guy became a national enemy of the team that lost. Then, about 3 weeks later, one newspaper ran a picture from an angle that no one had seen. And it clearly showed the guy's jersey being held and pulled while he was trying to dribble.

Nobody in the stadium or on TV saw the foul. But the ref did. He called it, took a lot of heat, and then was vindicated.

I think that might help to answer your question. Anybody remember what game that was?

No.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

No.

You can't even remember what mailing list to use in your email client. I thought maybe Nevada would remember.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]

You can't even remember what mailing list to use in your email client. [/B][/QUOTE]Good point.....unfortunately. I have no comeback and also acknowldege that my chastisement was fair and deserving.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You can't even remember what mailing list to use in your email client. [/B]

Good point.....unfortunately. I have no comeback and also acknowldege that my chastisement was fair and deserving.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Uh, JR, is that really you?

Hey, who took the grumpy ol' curmudgeon and left this apologizing, wimpy little poster?!?

(Btw, where's my check?)

psycho hasn't been back, so I'm still not sure what the intent of the original post was. But I'm gonna have to agree with most everyone here - if it's a legitimate call, call it. It shouldn't matter who else might or might not have seen it.

[tjones1]

I guess the question should be, why wouldn't you call it?

To please the players, coaches, and crowd?

Certainly can't please everyone in most situations, so hit your whistle, get the foul and move on. I agree with Mark... it's your job, so do it.

[Ref in PA]

If I call it, it was a foul. If I don't call it, it wasn't a foul. Simple as that. Doesn't matter who sees it.

[psycho_ref]

Thanks for the replies. No point to my question really. Not even sure if it was a question. Just a thought to contemplate. I guess a lot of referees misinterpret ideologies and concepts like "the advantage/disadvantage" and "calling the obvious".

I was actually hoping that some of you would say "if no one felt it then there was no advantage/disadvantage", or "if it wasn't obvious then you should pass on it". Quite frankly I can still see those arguments coming into play using those concepts as justification. Does anyone think these concepts are a good justification?

If the shooter never felt it and doesn't think it is a foul then how can it be disadvantageous?

Someone will say, "how do you know he/she didn't feel it. (for the sake of this philosophical argument lets assume we can read minds).

If there is no victim is there a crime?

I think the question was more of a life question than anything. Sort of "what if you knew you were right and everyone in the world was wrong?". Just a thought. Thanks for the replies.

[BktBallRef]

You have truly chosen the correct username.