Ball hits a tree

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Wait ... REALLY? You have a HIGH SCHOOL field that has a tree overhanging the third base line in the INFIELD? Am I misreading this?

No, you are not mis-reading. The JV field does have a tree which overhangs the area near 3rd base.

The ground rule we used for that was a ball that hits the tree is a foul ball, no matter where it lands. This was the ground rule of the home team and it was never argued.

The problem on the city park field is the tree extends over fair territory in such a way around the left field corner that a ball could be prevented from 1) going over the fence 2) going foul (slicing hit), or 3) being caught.

I have not seen a league rule on this, and since I only umpire part time in the league, I had to go by what I was told by the other umpire, redo.


I'm trying to remember what the rule is at Tropicana field for balls hitting the catwalk. IIRC if it hits certain ones it is a home run. I'm not sure what the rule is if it hits the ones closer to the plate though.

[Manny A]

There are four catwalks at the Trope. The two lower ones are furthest from home, and any fair batted ball that hits them or anything suspended from them is a home run.

The next one closer to the plate is partially in fair territory, and the closest one is completely in fair grounds. If a ball hits those in fair territory, it's treated as if it didn't hit anything and is judged fair or foul when it lands or is touched by a fielder. If caught, it's an out. If the ball gets stuck up there, it's a ground rule double. A ball that hits the foul portion of the second catwalk is dead and cannot be caught.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

No, you are not mis-reading. The JV field does have a tree which overhangs the area near 3rd base.

The ground rule we used for that was a ball that hits the tree is a foul ball, no matter where it lands. This was the ground rule of the home team and it was never argued.

Why not use the book rule so that you have an accurate grounds rule?

[BretMan]

Sure, if a team trys to tell you their field has a ground rule that doesn't jibe with the rule book...just say "no".

Earlier this year I had games on a field with an electrical wire running partly through live ball area in the outfield. The home team's coach tells me that if a batted ball hits the wire it's a dead ball.

So I ask him, "Then what? Where do you place the batter?".

He tells me first base. I asked what the base award is for other runners already on base. He says, "Ummm, I'm not sure. I've never seen a ball hit the wire before".

I told him that there's no such thing as a "ground rule single". A ground rule can't supersede a book rule. The book rule is that if a fair batted ball becomes dead and unplayable it's a two-base award. That's what we went with...it never came into play.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I told him that there's no such thing as a "ground rule single". A ground rule can't supersede a book rule. The book rule is that if a fair batted ball becomes dead and unplayable it's a two-base award. That's what we went with...it never came into play.

I don't think this is quite right. If supersede means can't create any situation different from the book rules, then what can ground rules do? Merely define dead ball territory?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I told him that there's no such thing as a "ground rule single".

Not true

A ground rule can't supersede a book rule.

Correct, but ground rules are there to provide guidance when something happens that is not in the rulebook but is possibly common because of a quirk at the GROUNDS at which you are playing.

The book rule is that if a fair batted ball becomes dead and unplayable it's a two-base award. That's what we went with...it never came into play.

A) To which book rule do you refer (there are several similar ... wondering which you're meaning here)...
B) how would hitting a wire suspended above cause it to become dead... OR unplayable?

Seems to me a wire across a field is EXACTLY the kind of situation that needs to be addressed by a ground rule.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by BretMan

A ground rule can't supersede a book rule. The book rule is that if a fair batted ball becomes dead and unplayable it's a two-base award.

I've never heard that before. Well, I take that back; I know that if there is a book rule to cover a situation, you cannot use a ground rule to supercede it.

But if a book rule doesn't exist for the situation, then a ground rule must be created, and the ground rule can pretty much say whatever it wants as long as it's fair and equitable. There's nothing in the book that says all ground rules have to have the same base awards as the closest book rule to it.

[Dakota]

I think you guys are making this too hard. "Can't supersede a book rule" means simply that.

A ground rule cannot change the rule for a situation the book covers.

League and local rules can do that, but not ground rules.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you guys are making this too hard. "Can't supersede a book rule" means simply that.

A ground rule cannot change the rule for a situation the book covers.

I agree with you. But I think Bret's point was that a ground rule's EFFECT should not conflict with a book rule's EFFECT for a similar situation.

His argument: When a fair batted ball is ruled dead because it got stuck in a fence, bounced over it, etc., the award is two bases. So the two-base award should also apply for any ground rule that is required. You cannot have ground rules that award only one base or three bases on fair batted balls. I don't believe that's true.

[BretMan]

Can anyone illustrate for me a circumstance where you would have a ground rule single or ground rule triple?

[MD Longhorn]

I have a ground rule triple example. One field I used to umpire on was at a park. In right field, about 250 feet out, the ground fell away (downward slope) toward a ravine. If you hit it past a spray painted line out there on the ground, it was a ground rule triple. No fence on that part of the outfield.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I have a ground rule triple example. One field I used to umpire on was at a park. In right field, about 250 feet out, the ground fell away (downward slope) toward a ravine. If you hit it past a spray painted line out there on the ground, it was a ground rule triple. No fence on that part of the outfield.

Why wouldn't that just be a GR double for a ground roller or a HR if it cleared on the fly? What is special about a painted line instead of a fence that would mean this should be a triple?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Can anyone illustrate for me a circumstance where you would have a ground rule single or ground rule triple?

True story: Our Little League Junior League baseball team played on a visiting field that had no outfield fence. It was all-you-can-get when the ball was hit past the outfielders for the most part. However, deep in left field, there were some woods that basically ran perpendicular to the left field line. In the left field corner, the woods were probably 350 feet away, and ran further away from home as it went from left to right.

We had a ground rule to prevent fielders from running into the woods that if a fair batted ball bounced into them from the foul line to essentially left-center, it would be killed and the batter would be awarded three bases. From left-center and beyond, it would be a four-base award. The theory was that if there were no woods in those areas, the batter would probably get a triple or a home run by the time the left fielder or center fielder retrieved the ball and threw it back in. It was umpire judgment which "wedge" the ball entered the woods. Obviously, anything in flight into the woods was a four-base award.

I've never seen a field where an anomaly could be dealt with using a one-base-award ground rule. But that doesn't mean it cannot be allowed as you surmise.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

True story: Our Little League Junior League baseball team played on a visiting field that had no outfield fence. It was all-you-can-get when the ball was hit past the outfielders for the most part. However, deep in left field, there were some woods that basically ran perpendicular to the left field line. In the left field corner, the woods were probably 350 feet away, and ran further away from home as it went from left to right.

We had a ground rule to prevent fielders from running into the woods that if a fair batted ball bounced into them from the foul line to essentially left-center, it would be killed and the batter would be awarded three bases. From left-center and beyond, it would be a four-base award. The theory was that if there were no woods in those areas, the batter would probably get a triple or a home run by the time the left fielder or center fielder retrieved the ball and threw it back in. It was umpire judgment which "wedge" the ball entered the woods. Obviously, anything in flight into the woods was a four-base award.

I've never seen a field where an anomaly could be dealt with using a one-base-award ground rule. But that doesn't mean it cannot be allowed as you surmise.

As a baseball umpire, I wouldn't allow that.

You can set a dead ball area/line, but once you do the rules take precedence. That, by rule, is a two-base award in baseball.

Perhaps softball is different. I actually thought this was posted on the baseball board until I looked up and saw "Softball" in the forum link.

[BretMan]

Mike and Manny: You established a dead ball area, be it a chalk line, imaginary line or a bush.

What is the rule when a fair batted ball bounces into a dead ball area?