Dead Ball or a Foul Ball Out

[Manny A]

We played our 18 Gold Territorial qualifier last weekend on fields as you describe. During the plate conference, we covered that the area beyond the temporary fences was DBT, and if any ball went there, the fielder was to raise her hands for the umpire to verify. However if a fielder played the ball beyond the temporary fences, there was no way to verify the ball entered DBT, and all play would stand.

The appropriate rules that cover this are the same as those that cover any situation where a line designates DBT. While we didn't have them on our fields, the grounds crews should have marked a line to extend the temporary fences.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Manny A

We played our 18 Gold Territorial qualifier last weekend on fields as you describe. During the plate conference, we covered that the area beyond the temporary fences was DBT, and if any ball went there, the fielder was to raise her hands for the umpire to verify. However if a fielder played the ball beyond the temporary fences, there was no way to verify the ball entered DBT, and all play would stand.

The appropriate rules that cover this are the same as those that cover any situation where a line designates DBT. While we didn't have them on our fields, the grounds crews should have marked a line to extend the temporary fences.

Even if you saw the ball enter DBT?

[Tex]

Conflicting answers here, can anyone refer to any rules or articles?

[RKBUmp]

The area beyond the outfield fence is dead ball territory. It doesn't magically become live ball territory outside the foul lines just because the outfield fence doesn't extend to the side fences.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Even if you saw the ball enter DBT?

Obviously that's a different story. I'm talking about the situation where the ball just goes over the boundary into DBT and stops.

Originally Posted by BretMan

I quit saying anything about "raising hands" in my plate conferences a long time ago. Raising hands has nothing to do with any playing rule or umpire mechanic.

What's the problem with raising hands? All the fielder is doing is requesting a killing of play, just like when they raise their hands to request Time to have a conference, recover from a base slide, etc. etc. We recognize it, but don't honor it until the appropriate time, which in this case is when all play ends and the umpire goes to verify the ball is indeed over the line. Otherwise, what should the girl do, just stand there staring over the line like Terence Mann looking into the corn?

[HugoTafurst]

I'm glad this discussion has come up.
I think the answer is clear. Any ball going into Dead Ball Territory is dead and awards should be made accordingly.
The fielder holding up her hand is mearly and indication to us that she believes the ball has gone into dead ball territory.

The confusion comes when the mechanic is brought up and then explained in a confusion manner (such as, but not limited to) "keep your runners running - we can bring them back, but we can't move them forward", "if she doesn't raise her hands, it's Run Rabbit Run".

I had a weekend where, believe it or not, I had two coaches (in two seperate games) argue that despite the fact that I as BU had seen that the ball clearly passed the fence and was standing there with my hands up hollaring, "DEAD BALL, DEAD BALL, DEAD BALL", because the outfielder did not raise her hands, the runners should get the bases they attained (which was more than 2 from the time of the pitch).
One coach bought my explaination, the other argued almost to the point of being tossed.... I finally asked her, did the ball go out of play? Her response was, "But the fielder never raised her hands".
She claimed that at the plate meeting she was told that "the fielder must raise her hands"
I don't doubt that she had been told that more than once or twice, but not at the plate meeting that I had attended.
I blame some of this confusion on my fellow umpires for not clearly explaining that the purpose of raising hands is simply a "heads-up" to the umpire.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

The confusion comes when the mechanic is brought up and then explained in a confusion manner (such as, but not limited to) "keep your runners running - we can bring them back, but we can't move them forward", "if she doesn't raise her hands, it's Run Rabbit Run".

Yes, that could be a problem when the plate umpire isn't clear.

I personally have never had a problem with coaches when I explain to them something like:

"Okay, as you can see, the temporary fence stops at the foul lines. So if the ball goes past the end of the fence, it's a dead ball and we will rule accordingly. One of us will kill play when we see the ball go past the fence. But if we can't see it, I suggest you tell your outfielders to raise their arms and not chase it. My partner will go out and verify the ball did go past once play ends, and again we'll rule accordingly. If your outfielders do chase the ball when we can't see that it went past the fence, we can't rule that it went out of play. Any questions?"

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Manny A

What's the problem with raising hands? All the fielder is doing is requesting a killing of play, just like when they raise their hands to request Time to have a conference, recover from a base slide, etc. etc. We recognize it, but don't honor it until the appropriate time, which in this case is when all play ends and the umpire goes to verify the ball is indeed over the line. Otherwise, what should the girl do, just stand there staring over the line like Terence Mann looking into the corn?

I don't have a problem with the fielder's raising their hands. I didn't say that I did. What I said was that I personally don't go into a mini-rules clinic at the pre-game conference and that I leave the instructions to players on how to handle these situations up to their coaches.

Like Hugo posted above, I've had too many people interpret these pre-game discussions to mean that anytime a fielder raises her hands the ball is automatically dead, and if they don't raise their hands it isn't. And everytime it gets twisted around to, "The umpires told us that".

So, I let the coaches tell their fielders how to react if a ball goes out of play and let them tell their runners how to run the bases if it might be in question.

Kind of hard to be misquoted about something if you don't bring it up...

None of this changes our jobs as umpires or affects our call. If we see a ball go out of play, we'll rule accordingly, whether a player throws her hands in the air or not.

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by Manny A

However if a fielder played the ball beyond the temporary fences, there was no way to verify the ball entered DBT, and all play would stand.

In our pre-games for this situation, we have stated that if a girl gets excited and chases a ball that rolls twenty or thirty feet into DBT, we will try to recognize that, kill the play and award bases. If, however, the ball only rolls two or three feet into DBT and is chased, we may not be able to see that and all play will stand. IOW, if we can determine that the ball is in DBT, a girl chasing it does not make it a live ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jake26

In our pre-games for this situation, we have stated that if a girl gets excited and chases a ball that rolls twenty or thirty feet into DBT, we will try to recognize that, kill the play and award bases. If, however, the ball only rolls two or three feet into DBT and is chased, we may not be able to see that and all play will stand. IOW, if we can determine that the ball is in DBT, a girl chasing it does not make it a live ball.

Wrong mechanic.

The Head Coaches during the Pre-Game Conference should be told to instruct their players that if one of their Players thinks the ball has gone into Dead Ball Territory, his Player should raise her arms; the Umpires will then allow the runners to complete their running of the bases; when the runners have completed their running of the bases, Time will be called and the Umpires will then go out to the Dead Ball area and determine if the Ball actually is in Dead Ball Territory. If the Ball is in Dead Ball Territory then the umpires will return the runners back to the diamond on the bases they would have acquired due to the Ball going into Dead Ball Territory. The Coaches also are reminded that if the Player raises her arms and then picks up the Ball the Player is indicating to the Umpires that the Ball is not in Dead Ball Territory.

MTD, Sr.

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Wrong mechanic.

The Head Coaches during the Pre-Game Conference should be told to instruct their players that if one of their Players thinks the ball has gone into Dead Ball Territory, his Player should raise her arms; the Umpires will then allow the runners to complete their running of the bases; when the runners have completed their running of the bases, Time will be called and the Umpires will then go out to the Dead Ball area and determine if the Ball actually is in Dead Ball Territory. If the Ball is in Dead Ball Territory then the umpires will return the runners back to the diamond on the bases they would have acquired due to the Ball going into Dead Ball Territory. The Coaches also are reminded that if the Player raises her arms and then picks up the Ball the Player is indicating to the Umpires that the Ball is not in Dead Ball Territory.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry. If the shortstop airmails the first baseman, the throw going over the fence, I'm killing the play even if the first baseman jumps the fence and chases the errant throw.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jake26

Sorry. If the shortstop airmails the first baseman, the throw going over the fence, I'm killing the play even if the first baseman jumps the fence and chases the errant throw.

Jake:

I should have clarified my statement. What we tell Coaches at the Pre-Game Conference applies for situations like described in the OP or when the Ball could have become stuck under the outfield fence or gone under the outfield fence where it is not obvious as to whether the ball is in or out of play.

Your situation is the obvious Dead Ball/Live Ball situation but not in the OP.

MTD, Sr.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Wrong mechanic.

The Head Coaches during the Pre-Game Conference should be told to instruct their players that if one of their Players thinks the ball has gone into Dead Ball Territory, his Player should raise her arms; the Umpires will then allow the runners to complete their running of the bases; when the runners have completed their running of the bases, Time will be called and the Umpires will then go out to the Dead Ball area and determine if the Ball actually is in Dead Ball Territory. If the Ball is in Dead Ball Territory then the umpires will return the runners back to the diamond on the bases they would have acquired due to the Ball going into Dead Ball Territory. The Coaches also are reminded that if the Player raises her arms and then picks up the Ball the Player is indicating to the Umpires that the Ball is not in Dead Ball Territory.

MTD, Sr.

Man, that's a long speech. That's like the Gettysburg Address of plate conferences.

Some of it will probably just confuse them more than they already are. And some of it is flat-out inaccurate.

If a player raises her hands, then picks up the ball, it indicates to the umpires the ball is not dead? No, not if I saw it with my own two eyeballs and and decided it was already dead first. Then it doesn't matter what the player does. All that indicates is that she picked up a dead ball.

I quit saying anything about "raising hands" in my plate conferences a long time ago. Raising hands has nothing to do with any playing rule or umpire mechanic. I see it as more of a coaching issue than an umpire duty. We're going to call it dead if we see it go into a dead ball area and we're going to keep it live if we don't. Raising hands isn't going to change that. Let their coaches tell them how to react if they're chasing a ball near the boundary lines. We're going to our same job regardless.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by bretman

man, that's a long speech. That's like the gettysburg address of plate conferences.

Some of it will probably just confuse them more than they already are. And some of it is flat-out inaccurate.

If a player raises her hands, then picks up the ball, it indicates to the umpires the ball is not dead? No, not if i saw it with my own two eyeballs and and decided it was already dead first. Then it doesn't matter what the player does. All that indicates is that she picked up a dead ball.

I quit saying anything about "raising hands" in my plate conferences a long time ago. Raising hands has nothing to do with any playing rule or umpire mechanic. I see it as more of a coaching issue than an umpire duty. We're going to call it dead if we see it go into a dead ball area and we're going to keep it live if we don't. Raising hands isn't going to change that. Let their coaches tell them how to react if they're chasing a ball near the boundary lines. We're going to our same job regardless.

yyyeeaaaahhhh!!!!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Man, that's a long speech. That's like the Gettysburg Address of plate conferences.

Some of it will probably just confuse them more than they already are. And some of it is flat-out inaccurate.

If a player raises her hands, then picks up the ball, it indicates to the umpires the ball is not dead? No, not if I saw it with my own two eyeballs and and decided it was already dead first. Then it doesn't matter what the player does. All that indicates is that she picked up a dead ball.

I quit saying anything about "raising hands" in my plate conferences a long time ago. Raising hands has nothing to do with any playing rule or umpire mechanic. I see it as more of a coaching issue than an umpire duty. We're going to call it dead if we see it go into a dead ball area and we're going to keep it live if we don't. Raising hands isn't going to change that. Let their coaches tell them how to react if they're chasing a ball near the boundary lines. We're going to our same job regardless.

No one said raising one's hand kills the ball. The pre-game IS for the coaches to direct the players. And what if you don't see it, tough shit for the defense?

I have no problem letting the know to raise their hands if they cannot cleanly field the ball due to it leaving LBT (and BTW that IS part of the ground rules and any effects which apply) and/or being obstructed by a fence or whatever. It doesn't mean the umpire is stopping the play, it just means that there is something that needs to be verified by the umpire prior to ruling it a dead ball. Reason is because if they feel they HAVE to play the ball, telling the umpire after the fact that there was an issue, not much the umpire can do about it at that point.

If the umpire does not have the ability to check the status of the ball, and not all gaps/obstructions are clearly visible from 50 yards away, how can I verify the defense's claim?

If all the fields were completely enclosed and maintained at a 100% level, this would very, rarely be an issue, but that just is not the real world.