Dead Ball or a Foul Ball Out

[Tex]

NFHS, ASA, USSSA rules: Please site rule number.

The field has a temporary fence, about 4 feet high, in the outfield, (left, center, and right field). This fence does not extend through foul territory to either the left field or the right field stands. What is the section of ground that is in foul territory behind this non-existence fence called? Would this area be considered foul ball or a dead ball territory? If a fly ball is caught in this area what is the call; an out where runners can advance or a dead ball strike without any advancement?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tex

NFHS, ASA, USSSA rules: Please site rule number.

The field has a temporary fence, about 4 feet high, in the outfield, (left, center, and right field). This fence does not extend through foul territory to either the left field or the right field stands. What is the section of ground that is in foul territory behind this non-existence fence called? Would this area be considered foul ball or a dead ball territory? If a fly ball is caught in this area what is the call; an out where runners can advance or a dead ball strike without any advancement?

If the ball lands or first touched beyond the fence, imaginary or not, it is a dead ball. Outside fair/foul line, foul ball; inside line, home run.
Often covered in ground rules.
Sorry, don't have time to find rule cites.

[Manny A]

We played our 18 Gold Territorial qualifier last weekend on fields as you describe. During the plate conference, we covered that the area beyond the temporary fences was DBT, and if any ball went there, the fielder was to raise her hands for the umpire to verify. However if a fielder played the ball beyond the temporary fences, there was no way to verify the ball entered DBT, and all play would stand.

The appropriate rules that cover this are the same as those that cover any situation where a line designates DBT. While we didn't have them on our fields, the grounds crews should have marked a line to extend the temporary fences.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Manny A

We played our 18 Gold Territorial qualifier last weekend on fields as you describe. During the plate conference, we covered that the area beyond the temporary fences was DBT, and if any ball went there, the fielder was to raise her hands for the umpire to verify. However if a fielder played the ball beyond the temporary fences, there was no way to verify the ball entered DBT, and all play would stand.

The appropriate rules that cover this are the same as those that cover any situation where a line designates DBT. While we didn't have them on our fields, the grounds crews should have marked a line to extend the temporary fences.

Even if you saw the ball enter DBT?

[Tex]

Conflicting answers here, can anyone refer to any rules or articles?

[RKBUmp]

The area beyond the outfield fence is dead ball territory. It doesn't magically become live ball territory outside the foul lines just because the outfield fence doesn't extend to the side fences.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Even if you saw the ball enter DBT?

Obviously that's a different story. I'm talking about the situation where the ball just goes over the boundary into DBT and stops.

Originally Posted by BretMan

I quit saying anything about "raising hands" in my plate conferences a long time ago. Raising hands has nothing to do with any playing rule or umpire mechanic.

What's the problem with raising hands? All the fielder is doing is requesting a killing of play, just like when they raise their hands to request Time to have a conference, recover from a base slide, etc. etc. We recognize it, but don't honor it until the appropriate time, which in this case is when all play ends and the umpire goes to verify the ball is indeed over the line. Otherwise, what should the girl do, just stand there staring over the line like Terence Mann looking into the corn?

[HugoTafurst]

I'm glad this discussion has come up.
I think the answer is clear. Any ball going into Dead Ball Territory is dead and awards should be made accordingly.
The fielder holding up her hand is mearly and indication to us that she believes the ball has gone into dead ball territory.

The confusion comes when the mechanic is brought up and then explained in a confusion manner (such as, but not limited to) "keep your runners running - we can bring them back, but we can't move them forward", "if she doesn't raise her hands, it's Run Rabbit Run".

I had a weekend where, believe it or not, I had two coaches (in two seperate games) argue that despite the fact that I as BU had seen that the ball clearly passed the fence and was standing there with my hands up hollaring, "DEAD BALL, DEAD BALL, DEAD BALL", because the outfielder did not raise her hands, the runners should get the bases they attained (which was more than 2 from the time of the pitch).
One coach bought my explaination, the other argued almost to the point of being tossed.... I finally asked her, did the ball go out of play? Her response was, "But the fielder never raised her hands".
She claimed that at the plate meeting she was told that "the fielder must raise her hands"
I don't doubt that she had been told that more than once or twice, but not at the plate meeting that I had attended.
I blame some of this confusion on my fellow umpires for not clearly explaining that the purpose of raising hands is simply a "heads-up" to the umpire.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Manny A

What's the problem with raising hands? All the fielder is doing is requesting a killing of play, just like when they raise their hands to request Time to have a conference, recover from a base slide, etc. etc. We recognize it, but don't honor it until the appropriate time, which in this case is when all play ends and the umpire goes to verify the ball is indeed over the line. Otherwise, what should the girl do, just stand there staring over the line like Terence Mann looking into the corn?

I don't have a problem with the fielder's raising their hands. I didn't say that I did. What I said was that I personally don't go into a mini-rules clinic at the pre-game conference and that I leave the instructions to players on how to handle these situations up to their coaches.

Like Hugo posted above, I've had too many people interpret these pre-game discussions to mean that anytime a fielder raises her hands the ball is automatically dead, and if they don't raise their hands it isn't. And everytime it gets twisted around to, "The umpires told us that".

So, I let the coaches tell their fielders how to react if a ball goes out of play and let them tell their runners how to run the bases if it might be in question.

Kind of hard to be misquoted about something if you don't bring it up...

None of this changes our jobs as umpires or affects our call. If we see a ball go out of play, we'll rule accordingly, whether a player throws her hands in the air or not.

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by Manny A

However if a fielder played the ball beyond the temporary fences, there was no way to verify the ball entered DBT, and all play would stand.

In our pre-games for this situation, we have stated that if a girl gets excited and chases a ball that rolls twenty or thirty feet into DBT, we will try to recognize that, kill the play and award bases. If, however, the ball only rolls two or three feet into DBT and is chased, we may not be able to see that and all play will stand. IOW, if we can determine that the ball is in DBT, a girl chasing it does not make it a live ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jake26

In our pre-games for this situation, we have stated that if a girl gets excited and chases a ball that rolls twenty or thirty feet into DBT, we will try to recognize that, kill the play and award bases. If, however, the ball only rolls two or three feet into DBT and is chased, we may not be able to see that and all play will stand. IOW, if we can determine that the ball is in DBT, a girl chasing it does not make it a live ball.

Wrong mechanic.

The Head Coaches during the Pre-Game Conference should be told to instruct their players that if one of their Players thinks the ball has gone into Dead Ball Territory, his Player should raise her arms; the Umpires will then allow the runners to complete their running of the bases; when the runners have completed their running of the bases, Time will be called and the Umpires will then go out to the Dead Ball area and determine if the Ball actually is in Dead Ball Territory. If the Ball is in Dead Ball Territory then the umpires will return the runners back to the diamond on the bases they would have acquired due to the Ball going into Dead Ball Territory. The Coaches also are reminded that if the Player raises her arms and then picks up the Ball the Player is indicating to the Umpires that the Ball is not in Dead Ball Territory.

MTD, Sr.

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Wrong mechanic.

The Head Coaches during the Pre-Game Conference should be told to instruct their players that if one of their Players thinks the ball has gone into Dead Ball Territory, his Player should raise her arms; the Umpires will then allow the runners to complete their running of the bases; when the runners have completed their running of the bases, Time will be called and the Umpires will then go out to the Dead Ball area and determine if the Ball actually is in Dead Ball Territory. If the Ball is in Dead Ball Territory then the umpires will return the runners back to the diamond on the bases they would have acquired due to the Ball going into Dead Ball Territory. The Coaches also are reminded that if the Player raises her arms and then picks up the Ball the Player is indicating to the Umpires that the Ball is not in Dead Ball Territory.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry. If the shortstop airmails the first baseman, the throw going over the fence, I'm killing the play even if the first baseman jumps the fence and chases the errant throw.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Wrong mechanic.

The Head Coaches during the Pre-Game Conference should be told to instruct their players that if one of their Players thinks the ball has gone into Dead Ball Territory, his Player should raise her arms; the Umpires will then allow the runners to complete their running of the bases; when the runners have completed their running of the bases, Time will be called and the Umpires will then go out to the Dead Ball area and determine if the Ball actually is in Dead Ball Territory. If the Ball is in Dead Ball Territory then the umpires will return the runners back to the diamond on the bases they would have acquired due to the Ball going into Dead Ball Territory. The Coaches also are reminded that if the Player raises her arms and then picks up the Ball the Player is indicating to the Umpires that the Ball is not in Dead Ball Territory.

MTD, Sr.

Man, that's a long speech. That's like the Gettysburg Address of plate conferences.

Some of it will probably just confuse them more than they already are. And some of it is flat-out inaccurate.

If a player raises her hands, then picks up the ball, it indicates to the umpires the ball is not dead? No, not if I saw it with my own two eyeballs and and decided it was already dead first. Then it doesn't matter what the player does. All that indicates is that she picked up a dead ball.

I quit saying anything about "raising hands" in my plate conferences a long time ago. Raising hands has nothing to do with any playing rule or umpire mechanic. I see it as more of a coaching issue than an umpire duty. We're going to call it dead if we see it go into a dead ball area and we're going to keep it live if we don't. Raising hands isn't going to change that. Let their coaches tell them how to react if they're chasing a ball near the boundary lines. We're going to our same job regardless.