mechanics again

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by vcblue

I was told last year that I need to give a foul ball call even when the ball goes directly to the fence.

While I don't doubt that that is true, that is class 101 in being an OOJ.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

While I don't doubt that that is true, that is class 101 in being an OOJ.

Really? I don't think umpires need to signal obvious foul balls but if that's how you figure out if someone is an "OOJ", I think you've missed the big picture. It's a minor stylistic thing that likely isn't noticed by anyone who doesn't umpire.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

While I don't doubt that that is true, that is class 101 in being an OOJ.

And here I thought that was reserved for people who do what they want because they obviously know better.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

While I don't doubt that that is true, that is class 101 in being an OOJ.

Wow, that's a little extreme, don'tcha think? I mean, we're talking about a subtle raising of the hands to signal a foul ball. It's no different than a subtle hammer on an obvious swing and miss, obvious fly ball catch, or an obvious putout of a runner.

Yes, if the foul signal is accompanied by a loud "FOUL!" call, I agree that's unnecessary. But a discreet signal is far from being over-officious, IMO.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Wow, that's a little extreme, don'tcha think? I mean, we're talking about a subtle raising of the hands to signal a foul ball. It's no different than a subtle hammer on an obvious swing and miss, obvious fly ball catch, or an obvious putout of a runner.

Yes, if the foul signal is accompanied by a loud "FOUL!" call, I agree that's unnecessary. But a discreet signal is far from being over-officious, IMO.

It is completely unnecessary and amateurish. I can live with the out call on the bases when the out is obvious because the defense has executed a play, a runner is advancing to a base, you do have issues such as a pulled foot or bobble, etc. But to signal every foul ball that is up in the bleachers is an absolute joke. Umpires use mechanics and signals to communicate to each other, the team members and others who are watching. When grandma sitting in the bleachers at Yankee stadium 350 feet from home plate can tell when Jeter slices one foul, how is it at all appropriate to raise your arms to signal a ripped foul ball straight back to the backstop? Sticking with WHY we have mechanics and signals, what justification is there for signaling here?

Instead of raising your hands, why not reach to the ball bag and get the catcher another ball (assuming it went out of play).

Additionally, if you are going to use a signal, it ought to be done correctly. If you are going to half-ass it because even you have determined it isn't really important, then don't do it at all.

If I have 30 out of the park foul balls in a college game and I raise my hands every time, delaying the time it takes to get the ball to the catcher by 5 seconds, I've add 2 1/2 worthless minutes onto the game. I've likely also irritated the catcher who has her hand out waiting. That's poor game management.

[MDUmp]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

It is completely unnecessary and amateurish. I can live with the out call on the bases when the out is obvious because the defense has executed a play, a runner is advancing to a base, you do have issues such as a pulled foot or bobble, etc. But to signal every foul ball that is up in the bleachers is an absolute joke. Umpires use mechanics and signals to communicate to each other, the team members and others who are watching. When grandma sitting in the bleachers at Yankee stadium 350 feet from home plate can tell when Jeter slices one foul, how is it at all appropriate to raise your arms to signal a ripped foul ball straight back to the backstop? Sticking with WHY we have mechanics and signals, what justification is there for signaling here?

Instead of raising your hands, why not reach to the ball bag and get the catcher another ball (assuming it went out of play).

Additionally, if you are going to use a signal, it ought to be done correctly. If you are going to half-ass it because even you have determined it isn't really important, then don't do it at all.

If I have 30 out of the park foul balls in a college game and I raise my hands every time, delaying the time it takes to get the ball to the catcher by 5 seconds, I've add 2 1/2 worthless minutes onto the game. I've likely also irritated the catcher who has her hand out waiting. That's poor game management.

Why signal a strike on a swing and miss caught by the catcher? Why not adjust your cup so the pitcher doesn't have to wait on you before making the next pitch?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by MDUmp

Why signal a strike on a swing and miss caught by the catcher? Why not adjust your cup so the pitcher doesn't have to wait on you before making the next pitch?

Your timing comparison is illogical and inaccurate. By your watch, every pitch would be a quick pitch. Keep trying though.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

It is completely unnecessary and amateurish. I can live with the out call on the bases when the out is obvious because the defense has executed a play, a runner is advancing to a base, you do have issues such as a pulled foot or bobble, etc. But to signal every foul ball that is up in the bleachers is an absolute joke.

It is not a joke if that is what the umpire is directed to do. Unless you are the UIC, you have no standing to direct the umpire to do otherwise regardless of personal feelings.

Umpires use mechanics and signals to communicate to each other, the team members and others who are watching. When grandma sitting in the bleachers at Yankee stadium 350 feet from home plate can tell when Jeter slices one foul, how is it at all appropriate to raise your arms to signal a ripped foul ball straight back to the backstop? Sticking with WHY we have mechanics and signals, what justification is there for signaling here?

Now, comparing this to the MLB is a joke.

Instead of raising your hands, why not reach to the ball bag and get the catcher another ball (assuming it went out of play).
Additionally, if you are going to use a signal, it ought to be done correctly. If you are going to half-ass it because even you have determined it isn't really important, then don't do it at all.

I agree 100%. And so did my instructors and UICs in ASA and ISF who understood the differences in the vocation. It was often mentioned by a few that the ASA shouldn't have an advanced school for umpires, but a school for advanced umpires. Problem there is how can you become an advanced umpire without learning and executing the basic? Today's staff is hooked on black and white and/or the DVDs as the bible even though some of it is wrong. I've run into some NUS guys who hadn't been on the field for years and would rather have the umpire follow the given mechanics with no allowance for exceptions regardless of whether it makes or breaks the umpire's ability to catch the play and that just isn't good.

It has been years since ASA changed their training count and hammer mechanic. In the schools and clinics I held, I continued to teach the old method of reaching high and then dropping to a hammer. The reason was you need to know the path before you can arrive at the destination. Of those from the areas which went directly to the hammer, I was seeing guys and gals throwing that right arm out and up and down, even using the thumb to call people out. Reason I got was simply because they were told what the hammer appeared to be, but was never shown how to get there.

If I have 30 out of the park foul balls in a college game and I raise my hands every time, delaying the time it takes to get the ball to the catcher by 5 seconds, I've add 2 1/2 worthless minutes onto the game. I've likely also irritated the catcher who has her hand out waiting. That's poor game management.

Then maybe you shouldn't pose when doing so. I doesn't take that long and you speak as if every other person on the field was frozen in their place, including runners and just waiting on you. In fact, any runners, often including the batter, are not on the base need to return and reset. Same with any fielder which was leaning and/or walking on the swing.

I agree that an umpire doesn't need to throw up his/her arms and make a loud call on the obvious foul ball. However, more often than not, I've had to get the catcher's attention to give him/her a ball to put into play. And depending on the game, I wouldn't be two quick to consider a ball appearing to be out of play too quickly. At some of the higher level SP games, I've seen a batted ball soar over the stands at 3B only to come back and clear a 325' fence in fair territory.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Wow, that's a little extreme, don'tcha think? I mean, we're talking about a subtle raising of the hands to signal a foul ball. It's no different than a subtle hammer on an obvious swing and miss, obvious fly ball catch, or an obvious putout of a runner.

Yes, if the foul signal is accompanied by a loud "FOUL!" call, I agree that's unnecessary. But a discreet signal is far from being over-officious, IMO.

And in case you missed my point, I DON'T want umpires to signal obvious fly balls. That's what lead to this discussion. Rather than pointing fair/foul on balls near the line that are touched by the defender and possibly dropped (a mechanic that is extremely useful and my save your ass some day) most associations want umpires to give worthless signals on obvious fly balls. That is amateurish. I feel stupid when in an NCAA game where I do what I am told I stick my arm up to signal a fly ball caught by the 2nd baseman. Do I really need to signal an out on a line shot back to the pitcher where she immediately fires to 1st for the double play on R1? Really? Who the hell is watching? Who cares? Who needs that communicated?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

And in case you missed my point, I DON'T want umpires to signal obvious fly balls. That's what lead to this discussion. Rather than pointing fair/foul on balls near the line that are touched by the defender and possibly dropped (a mechanic that is extremely useful and my save your ass some day) most associations want umpires to give worthless signals on obvious fly balls. That is amateurish. I feel stupid when in an NCAA game where I do what I am told I stick my arm up to signal a fly ball caught by the 2nd baseman. Do I really need to signal an out on a line shot back to the pitcher where she immediately fires to 1st for the double play on R1? Really? Who the hell is watching? Who cares? Who needs that communicated?

You keep bringing up NCAA and pro baseball. Do what you want at that level. I merely pointed out that in ASA, as instructed at the 18 GOLD Championship last year, we were told by NUS that we signal all foul balls. Unnecessary, perhaps. OOJ? Far from it.