Batting out of order

[fdt92]

Hypothetical - B2 and B3 bat in each others place (B1, B3, B2, B4) and both reach. B4 takes a pitch before the defense notices.

Now B3 should be at bat after B2, but is on base.

What can the off coach do?

Sub for B3 on the bases and have her finish the at bat?
What if no subs available ?

[CPEM1]

Originally Posted by fdt92

Hypothetical - B2 and B3 bat in each others place (B1, B3, B2, B4) and both reach. B4 takes a pitch before the defense notices.

Now B3 should be at bat after B2, but is on base.

What can the off coach do?

Sub for B3 on the bases and have her finish the at bat?
What if no subs available ?

No, B4 is the correct batter at this point and a pitch has already been made, so there's nothing the defense can do to appeal at this point. Continue on with B4, then B5, B6, etc.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by CPEM1

No, B4 is the correct batter at this point and a pitch has already been made, so there's nothing the defense can do to appeal at this point. Continue on with B4, then B5, B6, etc.

If the B4 pitch had not happened, B2 is negated, B3 is out and B4 is up.

[fdt92]

I thought if the batter after B2 (B4 in this case) takes a pitch, that legitimizes B2. Which would mean that B3 should be up to bat and if noticed while B4 is batting B3 would assume her (B4's) count.

Since B3 is "unable to bat", she would be out and then it's B4's at bat.

1 B1 skip
2 skip B2
3 B3 out?
4 skip B4
5 skip
6 skip
7 skip
8 skip
9 skip

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by fdt92

I thought if the batter after B2 (B4 in this case) takes a pitch, that legitimizes B2. Which would mean that B3 should be up to bat and if noticed while B4 is batting B3 would assume her (B4's) count.

Since B3 is "unable to bat", she would be out and then it's B4's at bat.

1 B1 skip
2 skip B2
3 B3 out? no
4 skip B4
5 skip
6 skip
7 skip
8 skip
9 skip

As soon as B4 takes pitch making B2s at bat legal, B3 loses her turn at bat because she is currently, legitimately on base. So B4 is by happy coincidence the proper batter and we play on.

Let's say instead of B4 it's B5 who comes up and takes a pitch after B2. (Team is really lost in space!). The defense appeals after the one pitch to B5. Again, the pitch to B5 makes B2s at bat legal and since B3 is on base she loses her turn and the proper batter is B4. B4 assumes B5s count and we play on.

[agr8zebra]

Nice reply

[fdt92]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If the B4 pitch had not happened, B2 is negated, B3 is out and B4 is up.

If B4 does not take a pitch, B2 is out for batting for B4 and now B5 is up. After B2 took a pitch, that reset the order to the batter after B3.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by fdt92

If B4 does not take a pitch, B2 is out for batting for B4 and now B5 is up. After B2 took a pitch, that reset the order to the batter after B3.

2 short sentences. 5 mistakes. This is completely incorrect.

[fdt92]

How so?


FED 7-1-5
"When an improper batter (B3) becomes a proper batter because no appeal is properly made as above. The next batter shall be the batter whose name follows that of such legalized improper batter (B4). The instant an improper batter's actions are legalized, the batting order picks up with the name following that of the legalized improper batter."

So B2 batting in B4's spot is negated and B4 is out. Next batter is B5. ("If B4 does not take a pitch...")

Ultimately, this is what I was looking for 7-1-6

When several batters bat out of order, a runner will not be removed from a base to assume their proper batting position.
If a player is on base when their position in the batting order is reached, they will miss their turn at bat with no penalty.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by fdt92

If B4 does not take a pitch, B2 is out for batting for B4

Wrong

and now B5 is up.

Wrong.

After B2 took a pitch, that reset the order to the batter after B3.

Wrong. OK. I exaggerated a tad. But every single word you said was part of an incorrect statement.

[Dakota]

OK, this back and forth with 2 different scenarios is making following this tedious. Here is what fdt92 is trying to say (I think) in the modified scenario (no pitch thrown to B4).

B1, B3, B2, B4 and the defense appeals BOO when B4 steps into the box and no pitch has been thrown. B1,3, and 2 are on base.

B3 batted improperly for B2, but the defense did not appeal. Once a pitch was thrown to B2, B3's at-bat becomes legal and the batting order resumes from there.

This makes B4 the proper batter, with B2 batting improperly for B4. B2 gets on base.

The defense appeals B2 out of order before a pitch is thrown to B4. B4 (as the proper batter that B2 batted for) is declared out for failure to bat in turn, and B2's at-bat is negated, with B2 being removed from the bases and B1 and B3 returned to their bases at the time of the last pitch to B2.

B5 is now the batter due up.

That's what fdt92 is saying.

OK, explain how this is wrong. I don't think it is.

[fdt92]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If the B4 pitch had not happened, B2 is negated, B3 is out and B4 is up.

Cecil first mentioned "if the b4 pitch had not happened..." scenario but his ruling that B4 is up instead of B5 had me wondering what I was missing.

I guess this is not a forum for a new umpire to seek advice.

All of the other forums I go to, it's the moderators that keep it civil, not the ones giving the rude answers with little explanation.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by fdt92

Cecil first mentioned "if the b4 pitch had not happened..." scenario but his ruling that B4 is up instead of B5 had me wondering what I was missing.

I guess this is not a forum for a new umpire to seek advice.

All of the other forums I go to, it's the moderators that keep it civil, not the ones giving the rude answers with little explanation.

If you're looking for advice, you're in the right place. If you're going to post answers as fact, and those answers are wrong, I would expect you to get corrected on any forum - wouldn't you? I didn't reiterate the correct answer because it had already been given.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by fdt92

If B4 does not take a pitch, B2 is out for batting for B4 and now B5 is up. After B2 took a pitch, that reset the order to the batter after B3.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

2 short sentences. 5 mistakes. This is completely incorrect.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If you're looking for advice, you're in the right place. If you're going to post answers as fact, and those answers are wrong, I would expect you to get corrected on any forum - wouldn't you? I didn't reiterate the correct answer because it had already been given.

That fine, and I agree this is a good umpire board that is generally friendly to new umpires (and even to coaches and fans), but wasn't his post regarding the modified scenario (which you replied as completely incorrect) actually correct?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by fdt92

Hypothetical - B2 and B3 bat in each others place (B1, B3, B2, B4) and both reach. B4 takes a pitch before the defense notices.

Now B3 should be at bat after B2, but is on base.

What can the off coach do?

Sub for B3 on the bases and have her finish the at bat?
What if no subs available ?

Simple answer to your question: Nothing. Once the pitcher throws a pitch, legal or illegal, to the next batter, no appeal is available and all previous play is complete and legal.

Nothing else happens and the batting order remains the same as it appears on the official line-up card.