That's Interference!

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Coach deciding to hold the runner should not have an iota of bearing in whether you send this runner home or not - coach's decision was made AFTER the obstruction and was based on where that runner was and where the ball was at the time he made that decision.

But the coach made that decision after hearing 2 umpires call obstruction, too.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

I may always have looked at this wrong, BUT, I have looked at judging the base she would have gotten absent the obstruction more by judging how much I believe the player lost due to the obstruction.
In other words, brief contact rounding first or being denied the inside of first base while rounding, then getting thrown out by only a few steps. I would award her 2nd base, but if she continued (without hesitation) on to 3rd and was still thrown out by those same few steps, I would award her third.

If she were thrown out at 2nd by more than the few steps I judged the obstruction caused, I'd send her back to first.

If she were thrown out at 3rd by more than the few steps I judged the obstruction caused, she would be out.

Also if she stopped (or hesitated) at second on her way to third, I also would have no protection for her.

Too many variables to read

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But the coach made that decision after hearing 2 umpires call obstruction, too.

Another reason that him holding the runner is irrelevant.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, maybe. I would be more specific as to state you do not alter an award based on subsequent play.

For example, BR/R rounding 1B and runs into Moose watching F9 move to cut-off the bounding ball. BU thinking, "okay, this isn't deep, 2B" as runner regains his/her balance and heads toward 2B. However, F9 doesn't quite get in position in time to cut off the ball and it looks like the runner can reach 3B as F9 is gets to the ball.

Not a problem, now throw just beats the runner to 3B, but gets by F5. Runner jumps up and tries to score. The ball kicks back strong off the fence to F5 who just gets the runner out at the plate.

I have no problem with an umpire hesitating/adjusting the award at the top of the action. However, once the defense gains position of the BATTER ball that is where I prefer they lock in the location at that point.

Remember, OBS is just supposed to bring the playing field back to a level after the OBS. That point was reached when the runner reached 3B safely.

I have no problem with your example, and that's how I would rule. I would initially protect the BR to second, but then adjust that protection to third after F9 fails to cut off the ball adequately, allowing the BR to try for third. Once she reaches third safely on the play and the ball gets away from F5, she's on her own, since the obstruction had no bearing on her attempt to score.

Apparently others argue that the BR loses her protection after she rounds second and heads for third, since they would not change what they determined was her protection immediately upon the obstruction taking place.

[tcannizzo]

I am confused on the definition of "subsequent play".

[Andy]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

I am confused on the definition of "subsequent play".

Base hit to an outfield gap, B/R rounds first and bumps into F3, B/R has an easy double. F8 gets to the ball, picks it up to throw it back in and airmails the throw over the head of the cutoff. B/R now decides to attempt third base. F1 is on the ball backing up the throw, gets the ball and throws B/R out on a close play at third.

The overthrow is a "subsequent play". The obstruction had no effect on the B/R's attempt to advance to third base.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

I am confused on the definition of "subsequent play".

B1 hits a single to right-center, and is obstructed by F3 while rounding 1B. F8 and F9 run into each other while attempting to field the ground ball, knocking each other to the ground. The batted ball continues rolling along toward the fence. While F8/9 are untangling, F7 runs over and controls the ball.

In my view, everything described above can be taken into account in determining the base to which R1 (B1) is protected, and the protection can legitimately be extended beyond the initial judgment of "single".

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Dakota

B1 hits a single to right-center, and is obstructed by F3 while rounding 1B. F8 and F9 run into each other while attempting to field the ground ball, knocking each other to the ground. The batted ball continues rolling along toward the fence. While F8/9 are untangling, F7 runs over and controls the ball.

In my view, everything described above can be taken into account in determining the base to which R1 (B1) is protected, and the protection can legitimately be extended beyond the initial judgment of "single".

Yeah, this is the type of play that I wasn't sure about.
So, the initial play includes the action on the batted ball until it is fielded.
IOW, you can't assume that the ball would have been fielded.
Subsequent action begins with the throw?
Is this a reasonable way of wording it?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

I am confused on the definition of "subsequent play".

sub·se·quent
adjective \ˈsəb-si-kwənt, -sə-ˌkwent\ : happening or coming after something else







Full Definition of SUBSEQUENT

: following in time, order, or place <subsequent events> subsequent clause in the treaty>

[tcannizzo]

Nice. . I get that.

But now I realize that I have been calling this wrong.
Ball hit down RF line, F3 OBS BR/R before Fn gets to the ball.
OBS occurs between 1B and 2B and is minor.

(I have been saying "2B" because of the judgement made at the time of the OBS. So, I want to get this clearly as possible.)

Then ball gets away from Fn.
Fn finally gets ball.
Fn throws to cutoff/relay (F4 at edge of grass) who relays to F2 at HP.
Ball gets away from F2, but recovers just in time to tag BR/R.
(bear with me on this - PLEASE)

You see where I am going with this?
PLAY: An attempt by a defensive player to retire an offensive player.

So, all of that would be considered the "Play", and none of that would be considered "Subsequent" action, which is moot anyway, because the only time "Subsequent action" matters is when a play is made on a different runner.

Meaning I don't have to judge what base would have been reached until the play is completely over?

no flames (well maybe I deserve something)

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Ball hit down RF line, F3 OBS BR/R before Fn gets to the ball.
OBS occurs between 1B and 2B and is minor.

Then ball gets away from Fn.....

...Meaning I don't have to judge what base would have been reached until the play is completely over?

You should have already judged where protection ends long before play at the plate. Everything after "Then ball gets away" was after the minor OBS between 1B and 2B.

The picture I get from description of this play leads me to believe that at most BR would be protected to 2B or maybe only to 1B (although still can't be put out between 1B and 2B).

Can't see anything that would award 3B much less home.

Don't get caught up in trying to add the OBS to end of play. In this case the OBS was water under the bridge after BR got past 2B.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

You should have already judged where protection ends long before play at the plate. Everything after "Then ball gets away" was after the minor OBS between 1B and 2B.

The picture I get from description of this play leads me to believe that at most BR would be protected to 2B or maybe only to 1B (although still can't be put out between 1B and 2B).

Can't see anything that would award 3B much less home.

Don't get caught up in trying to add the OBS to end of play. In this case the OBS was water under the bridge after BR got past 2B.

Then you think that I have been calling it right all along?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Nice. . I get that.

But now I realize that I have been calling this wrong.
Ball hit down RF line, F3 OBS BR/R before Fn gets to the ball.
OBS occurs between 1B and 2B and is minor.

(I have been saying "2B" because of the judgement made at the time of the OBS. So, I want to get this clearly as possible.)

Then ball gets away from Fn.
Fn finally gets ball.

STOP RIGHT THERE! Here is the point where the umpire should make the final determination of the base to which you intend to protect/award the runner.

Any misplays or just bad decisions on either end after this point should be irrelevant to the initial OBS.

Fn throws to cutoff/relay (F4 at edge of grass) who relays to F2 at HP.
Ball gets away from F2, but recovers just in time to tag BR/R.
(bear with me on this - PLEASE)

Completely irrelevant to the OBS

You see where I am going with this?
PLAY: An attempt by a defensive player to retire an offensive player.

So, all of that would be considered the "Play", and none of that would be considered "Subsequent" action, which is moot anyway, because the only time "Subsequent action" matters is when a play is made on a different runner. Meaning I don't have to judge what base would have been reached until the play is completely over?

no flames (well maybe I deserve something)

No, absolutely not. Nothing to do with "another" runner, different rule and application. My comment was "on subsequent play", not "a subsequent play". IOW, as in "playing" the game.

[tcannizzo]

Makes sense. Thanks.