flex batting in 10th spot

[MD Longhorn]

When the flex approaches the plate to bat in the DP's normal spot, are you requiring the coach to come tell you that they are batting the flex for the DP? No. When the flex comes to bat ... it is for the DP.

We have an illegal player when the DP and flex are in the game at the same time. Doesn't sound to be the case here as the flex scored on the 1st batter after her.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

When the flex approaches the plate to bat in the DP's normal spot, are you requiring the coach to come tell you that they are batting the flex for the DP? No. When the flex comes to bat ... it is for the DP.

We have an illegal player when the DP and flex are in the game at the same time. Doesn't sound to be the case here as the flex scored on the 1st batter after her.

In NCAA, she absolutely must report that; failure to do that is an unreported substitution, and there is a significant penalty in NCAA (compared to FED slap on the wrist warning, and ASA only penalty if appealed before first pitch to next batter). In NCAA, she remains unreported and is never legally in the game until she is reported, and the offended coach can wait until the most substantive penalty can apply.

Also, please note that an unreported sub is one that has the right to legally be where she is, they just didn't tell the plate umpire. The FLEX entering for someone other than the DP is NOT unreported, it is an illegal player.

[CecilOne]

This has been a confusion as long as FLEX has existed and we have discussed it several times without a real resolution.

In the OP, by the time the DP bats, there have been three violations. If the #1 batter batted after the FLEX, then the FLEX either
- illegally batted or
- BOO for the DP, which means the #1 also BOO.

The OP implies the appeal was after the DP batted before anything else occurred. The DP was not replaced by the FLEX if she batted and is not BOO at that point because she followed #2 batter.

So, the penalty has to be for the FLEX batting at all, as above depending on rule set.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

This has been a confusion as long as FLEX has existed and we have discussed it several times without a real resolution. ...

Here's a situation for you, Cecil.

DP is the #1 batter in the order. FLEX is, of course, listed as #10. What if FLEX comes to bat after B9, gets a hit, and before DP (who is on-deck) comes to bat, the defense appeals BOO?

[CecilOne]

There is NO rule set that allows the FLEX to bat as the FLEX.
AFAIK, all DP/FLEX rules are the same.

There is at least one rule set that allows an AP to bat anywhere in the lineup, in an EP/EH matter; but they have no connection to the DP that goes with the FLEX.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Here's a situation for you, Cecil.

DP is the #1 batter in the order. FLEX is, of course, listed as #10. What if FLEX comes to bat after B9, gets a hit, and before DP (who is on-deck) comes to bat, the defense appeals BOO?

Not BOO. If they appeal illegal batter or whatever term applies, ok.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Not BOO. If they appeal illegal batter or whatever term applies, ok.

How would you know FLEX batted in the #10 spot, or she batted for the DP in the #1 spot? The fact that the DP is in the on-deck circle is immaterial, is it not? At the time of the appeal, this could be nothing more than an unannounced substitution of the DP. Until the DP physically occupies the batter's box, her status is unknown.

Or is that not true?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

How would you know FLEX batted in the #10 spot, or she batted for the DP in the #1 spot? The fact that the DP is in the on-deck circle is immaterial, is it not? At the time of the appeal, this could be nothing more than an unannounced substitution of the DP. Until the DP physically occupies the batter's box, her status is unknown.

Or is that not true?

If DP bats, the FLEX batted as #10, illegal.
If DP does not bat, the FLEX batted in the DP spot.
Either way, not BOO.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If DP bats, the FLEX batted as #10, illegal.
If DP does not bat, the FLEX batted in the DP spot.
Either way, not BOO.

Sure, but until DP does something - we have Schroedinger's Cat.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If DP bats, the FLEX batted as #10, illegal.
If DP does not bat, the FLEX batted in the DP spot.
Either way, not BOO.

Since the appeal was made before DP takes her position in the batter's box, DP does has not batted before a ruling needs to be made.

Bazinga!

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

When the flex approaches the plate to bat in the DP's normal spot, are you requiring the coach to come tell you that they are batting the flex for the DP? No. When the flex comes to bat ... it is for the DP.

Well . . . Yes I would require it (NCAA rule citations)

8.2.3 Uncharged Substitution
The flex may go in and out of the DP’s position in the batting order any time and any number of times. This action counts as a substitution for the DP. This movement in and out of the game must be reported to the plate umpire to avoid an unreported player violation. (See Rule 8.3.3.)

8.2.4 Charged Substitution
8.2.4.1 The flex is charged with a substitution only when she is taken out of the defensive lineup. Movement in and out of the DP’s position in the batting order does not count but must be reported to the plate umpire.

This is an Illegal Player (8.3.4), specifically 8.3.4.1.6. The crux to this is when she can be discovered, as illegal players can be discovered while on base (before and after pitches scenarios are provided in 8.3.4.2). However, there is no mention if not on base (after a score). This can get rather strange, as the team in violation cannot make this right without penalty (8.3.4.2.1 Effect).

(sorry, not to hijack but) However, there can be a combination of rules if the timing is correct. Say the flex bats after the 9th batter and reaches base. We now have an illegal player (as long as the DP is not the first hitter, else just an unreported player). The number one batter now bats and reaches base. Before the next pitch, the coach appeals both an illegal player - the flex for batting for someone other than the DP - AND batting out of order because the flex batted for the leadoff hitter, hence the second batter is now the proper hitter.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

When the flex approaches the plate to bat in the DP's normal spot, are you requiring the coach to come tell you that they are batting the flex for the DP? No. When the flex comes to bat ... it is for the DP.

Yes. Otherwise, it is an unreported substitute.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

We have an illegal player when the DP and flex are in the game at the same time. Doesn't sound to be the case here as the flex scored on the 1st batter after her.

FLEX batting for anyone other than DP is an improper (illegal) player, by the rules cited.

We rule based on what the players and coach actually did, not based on what we might assume they must have meant to do. In the OP's situation, as presented, the coach intended for FLEX to bat in the #10 spot, just as he had been doing in whatever rules they were using in travel ball (USSSA, maybe?). To let the coach off the hook for what he actually did by assuming he must have meant to have FLEX bat for DP, but forgot to tell you, and then FLEX bats out of order is hearing hoof beats in West Texas and assuming they must be from zebras.

When FLEX batted, she was an illegal player. Now, can that still be penalized 3 batters later after FLEX has scored? Ejection would still be correct, it seems to me, and all play would stand that resulted from the FLEX at-bat.