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-   -   Runner out or safe (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/97195-runner-out-safe.html)

youngump Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921558)
Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

Here's how I understand it and the way I reconcile the rules.

There's two things you can interfere with. You can interfere with the ball or you can interfere with the player. And the rules reference each separately.

If you run into the player who is fielding the ball, then you're going to be out because the rule protects them throughout the initial play.

If you run into the ball (or it runs into you), then we have a few variations (The third is this scenario):
if it is untouched and behind a fielder with no other fielder having a chance to make an out, you're fine unless it's intentional.
if it is untouched and behind a fielder with another fielder having a chance to make an out, you're out.
if it is deflected, you're fine unless it's intentional.
In the first two cases, the pitcher doesn't count as a fielder. (Otherwise the ball would always be past her by the time it hits you.)

jmkupka Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:56am

young ump,

re:scenario 1;

even if the runner runs into a fielder who has drastically altered her direction of travel due to the deflected ball (and runner cannot avoid contact)?

Insane Blue Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921486)
R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out if the ball had not hit R1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921558)
Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.


Rule 8 Section 6 A runner is out. Article 10 The runner interferes (a)with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball.

Rule 8 Section 8 A runner is not out. Article 6 A runner is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.


The rules do not conflict at all they cover 2 different situations.

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove (initial play)and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out (please explain what you mean a close out) if the ball had not hit R1.

strike4 Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Blue (Post 921567)
Rule 8 Section 6 A runner is out. Article 10 The runner interferes (a)with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball.

Rule 8 Section 8 A runner is not out. Article 6 A runner is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.


The rules do not conflict at all they cover 2 different situations.

R1 on 1B and leaves at the release of the pitch. B2 hits ball that touches F1 glove (initial play)and then hits R1 while sliding toward 2B. F4 would have caught the ball for a close out (please explain what you mean a close out) if the ball had not hit R1.


A close out means that if the runner had not been hit by the ball, the fielder could have caught the ball and made an out, but it would be a bang bang play.

Which situation covers my play? Would you call the runner out or safe in this play? Please cite which rule you would use to make your call.

Dakota Thu Feb 06, 2014 01:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921556)
See page 67, rule 8.6.10a reads "The runner is out if runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball (2.47).

See page 25, 2.47.3a. Definition of initial play is: "Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched".

It is interference based on the definition of initial play and rule 8.6.10a.

See why I posted this question.

The rule does NOT say "interferes with a fielder's attempt..." it says "interferes with a fielder attempting..."

The interference must be with the fielder (not necessarily by contact). In the play described, the runner is merely contacted by a deflected batted ball. The fielder is not interfered with.

CecilOne Thu Feb 06, 2014 01:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921558)
Now you see why I ask this question. You have two rules that seem to be in total conflict. I hope others will comment on this situation.

8.8.6 is the ball hitting a runner who would be out except for the deflection.

8.6.10 is INT with a fielder, as in hindering movement, contact with the fielder that prevents fielding, etc.

Insane Blue Thu Feb 06, 2014 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921569)
A close out means that if the runner had not been hit by the ball, the fielder could have caught the ball and made an out, but it would be a bang bang play.

Which situation covers my play? Would you call the runner out or safe in this play? Please cite which rule you would use to make your call.

8-8-6 is the only rule to use on this play plain and simple

MD Longhorn Thu Feb 06, 2014 03:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921536)
See 8.6.10a. 2.47.3a is the definition of initial play. Rule 8.6.10a says "the runner is out if the runner interferes with a fielder attempting to make an initial play".

There's a difference between interfering with a fielder and interfering with the path of the ball.

MD Longhorn Thu Feb 06, 2014 03:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED (Post 921554)
Well I hate this part of the rule or in this case the combination of the rules. But I have to agree with strike 4 on this one. The runner would be out. By the citations that were given that fielder is still in the act of making an initial play per the defination so it is still INT. Again it gives me heart burn but as I have been told when I argued it....that's the way the rules are written.

It's not. Getting hit by the ball is one rule. Interfering with a FIELDER is a different rule.

youngump Thu Feb 06, 2014 05:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 921564)
young ump,

re:scenario 1;

even if the runner runs into a fielder who has drastically altered her direction of travel due to the deflected ball (and runner cannot avoid contact)?

You say that like I'm forgetting something but if so I've forgotten it. As I understand it (it being the offseason and all), yes, a fielder making an initial play is protected from being interfered with even unintentionally.

strike4 Fri Feb 07, 2014 07:52am

Thanks for all the comments. They caused me to think a little deeper about the rules.

Based on some of the comments, let me add an additional thought to the question. Would it make a difference in how you ruled if the charging fielder stopped or slowed down because the runner slid between her and the ball on an initial play? Is contact necessary before you would call interference?

MD Longhorn Fri Feb 07, 2014 09:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921647)
Thanks for all the comments. They caused me to think a little deeper about the rules.

Based on some of the comments, let me add an additional thought to the question. Would it make a difference in how you ruled if the charging fielder stopped or slowed down because the runner slid between her and the ball on an initial play? Is contact necessary before you would call interference?

Contact is not necessary - what you describe would be interference with a fielder. Which would be illegal if the fielder was making an initial play.

CecilOne Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 921662)
Contact is not necessary - what you describe would be interference with a fielder. Which would be illegal if the fielder was making an initial play.

I thought we were talking about a runner being struck by the ball they could not avoid. Is the fielder stopping really a different question? I understood strike4's last post as the same as OP, with the fielder recognizing the situation.

strike4 Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 921680)
I thought we were talking about a runner being struck by the ball they could not avoid. Is the fielder stopping really a different question? I understood strike4's last post as the same as OP, with the fielder recognizing the situation.

That is correct.

Insane Blue Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike4 (Post 921647)
Thanks for all the comments. They caused me to think a little deeper about the rules.

Based on some of the comments, let me add an additional thought to the question. Would it make a difference in how you ruled if the charging fielder stopped or slowed down because the runner slid between her and the ball on an initial play? Is contact necessary before you would call interference?

No it would not the initial play is over once the ball was deflected.

Are you just trying to get us all to call an out no matter how legal the play is???


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