Were these Blues Reaching or What?

[whiskers_ump]

Watching an 18U game last night. ASA rules applied.

F1 has just completed her warm ups, F3 throws down to 2B,
with F6 covering. Entire infield gathers in the circle.
F1 picks up resin bag, applies and passes to each of her
infielders who all do the same.

F1 has ball in glove, wipes throwing hand, takes signal and
pitches to B1. B1 grounds to F5, who fires to F3 for the
out. Ball is passed around and back to F1 who now faces B2
without wiping hand. On delivery both field umpires signal
and verbalize "Illegal pitch".

Umpiring crew ruled that since each of the infielders had
utilized the resin bag without wiping and then thrown the
ball back to F1, then a foreign substance had been
applied by a defensive player.

Good call - Bad call

glen

[LDUB]

I'm not sure but I would have to say it is a good call. I mean what if the first baseman had vaseline on her hand and she wiped it on the ball. It is basicly the same thing. Also wouldn't the pitcher be ejected for pitching a ball with an illegal substance applied to it? I'm not sure on that one. But I think it was a good call.

[whiskers_ump]

LDUB,

On the first offense you call illegal pitch, if
defensive player continues to place foreign sub-
stance on the ball, ejected...

glen

[TruBlu]

I don't know, but sounds like over-kill to me.

[Steve M]

I agree, that's overkill - looking for boogers. I see that as a bad call.

Steve M

[Skahtboi]

How is resin an illegal or foreign substance?

Under the supervision and control of the umpire, powdered resin may be used to dry the hands.

It does not specify that this is solely for the pitcher...in fact that rule starts out by saying that a defensive player shall not place any foreign substance on the ball. It then goes on to say the part that I quoted above. In my opinion, the umpires in this case were reaching.

[SC Ump]

I definitely think it is booger pickin'.

(But if we as umpires could do something about the players gathering in the circle, I would be happy to pick some boogers, too.... but that's another thread.)

[Dakota]

18U? Both umpires make this call?

These were experienced players. Probably a set up to put rosin, resin, rosen, whatever on the ball.

Sounds like the umpires were on to their trick. I'd guess they'd done it before.

[whiskers_ump]

Scott,

"Under the supervision of the umpire". He did not
supervise this ordeal.

If resin placed on hands and not wiped it is a foreign
substance. F1 wiped her hand before originial pitch.

Tom,

They had used this procedure before....That is why the
blues were alertly watching....

Steve, SCUMP,

I agree probably overkill, but the call was within the
rules.

glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

There is no requirement to wipe the resin from the hand in the rule. It states it may be applied to dry the hands, but not placed in the glove on the ball.

A lot of questions here. Who was watching the pitch and play if the umpires were paying attention to each infielder to see that they didn't wipe their hands during that period? Without inspecting the ball, how can the umpires be sure that resin was actually applied to the ball?

Obviously, the umpires supervised (oversaw) this or they wouldn't have known it was done.

I believe they were reaching and the call was a set up. Some "Billy Martin-type" manager thinks they are being slick and getting away with something that probably has little to no effect on the game. And, the umpires probably knew this and were sending a message, sort of like a FYC.

[whiskers_ump]

Mike,

"I believe they were reaching and the call was a set up. Some "Billy Martin-type" manager thinks they are being slick and getting away with something that probably has little to no effect on the game. And, the umpires probably knew this and were sending a message, sort of like a FYC."

Exactly....They called it when it had no effect on the game.
Which is the way it should have been called. No one on and
already 1 out in the book. Just a ball, but it let the coach
know which was to be what.

Did not say I agreed with the call, but technically it was
correct as far as rules go. With the entire infield gathered
and resin going from person to person. The only pitch I am
aware that it could effect would be the drop ball. Not sure
how, but have been told it does assist that pitch.

glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Mike,

"I believe they were reaching and the call was a set up. Some "Billy Martin-type" manager thinks they are being slick and getting away with something that probably has little to no effect on the game. And, the umpires probably knew this and were sending a message, sort of like a FYC."

Exactly....They called it when it had no effect on the game.
Which is the way it should have been called. No one on and
already 1 out in the book. Just a ball, but it let the coach
know which was to be what.

Did not say I agreed with the call, but technically it was
correct as far as rules go. With the entire infield gathered
and resin going from person to person. The only pitch I am
aware that it could effect would be the drop ball. Not sure
how, but have been told it does assist that pitch.

glen

To the best of my knowledge, the effect "foreign substance" has on the ball is that it creates an unbalanced ball which supposedly affects the flight of the ball, somewhat like a knuckle ball.

Personally, I do not see any effect which could be caused by resin unless it was packed into the stitching. Personally, I think this is a leftover rule from the old baseball days. Ugh, I hated using that word, but sometimes we just have to do what we have to do.

And, I still contend that the umpires' call was based on assumption not fact. Like I said, there is nothing in the rule which demands the defenders wipe off their hands after use.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
To the best of my knowledge, the effect "foreign substance" has on the ball is that it creates an unbalanced ball which supposedly affects the flight of the ball, somewhat like a knuckle ball.

Personally, I do not see any effect which could be caused by resin unless it was packed into the stitching. Personally, I think this is a leftover rule from the old baseball days. Ugh, I hated using that word, but sometimes we just have to do what we have to do.

And, I still contend that the umpires' call was based on assumption not fact. Like I said, there is nothing in the rule which demands the defenders wipe off their hands after use.

You are right about the aerodynamic effect of foreign substances on the ball. It can affect balance, and can affect the air flow around the ball. The effect of a little bit of second-hand resin on a 12" softball is, well, lets just say limited.

The players thought it had an effect, and were trying to get away with something. Was the "something" "anything?" Who knows.

But the umpires were aware of it and were putting a stop to it. The rule clearly says that no defensive player will be allowed to put any foreign substance on the ball. They were within the rules, and probably more importantly, were sending a message that they were in control of the game and would not tolerate shenanigans.

[TexBlue]

I'm with all the other guys on this subject. While the rules state no foreign substance will be applied, resin is a legal substance on the field, to be overseen by the umpire. The intent of the resin is to dry the hand. Apparently the governing bodies in all the associations decided the resin can't affect the performance of the pitch. The only time I would demand the hand be wiped is if I saw a pitcher use the old Charlie Hough trick, where he applied so much resin on the ball, it came out of a cloud of resin, preventing the batter from picking up the ball as quickly. I'd call an illegal pitch then and talk to the coach about it and then discuss it with the pitcher. I think the meeting by these girls was just a ritual that they had and any effect on the ball was minimum. I also agree that if both blues called it on the same pitch, someone alerted them to it and they reacted to that more than the pitch itself. Smart coach, snookered blues, part of the game. I would bet you a coke though, that call was discussed the rest of the day at the tournament by the blues in between games.

I was at the PONY Nationals 2 weeks ago, calling the Palomino group ( 18-U ). A pitcher was using the resin bag and then going striaght to the ball. My partner, the BU, talked to her and the catcher. When the catcher came back, I asked her what that was all about. She told me. My partner and I discussed this in between the next several 1/2 innings, like you do on calls and rules. No arguiing, just pros and cons of the interpretation of the rule. He came from San Antonio, where a lot of the blues do call this an IP. After the game, he talked to some other blues, as did I, and he finally decided it MIGHT NOT be an IP. I think you have to look at the intent of the rule ie. no vaseline, spit etc. I don't believe the rule was meant to outlaw a substance on the ball that is actually declared legal to use in the 3 organizations I call for, PONY, ASA and NFHS

Rick

[Dakota]

From the ASA Case Book:

Case Play 6F.6-4. F5 rubs dirt on the ball and then gives it to the pitcher to pitch.
RULING: Umpires should use discretion in the determination of "foreign substances". Once the pitcher has the ball with the foreign substance near the pitcher's plate, and illegal pitch should be called. (6F-6)

Note the sentence I underlined. Use discretion. That doesn't mean ignore, but don't look for boogers, either.

Case Play 6F.6-5. The pitcher places resin directly on the ball or in his glove and resin transfers to the ball and pitches it before the umpire can stop play.
RULING: Illegal pitch. Resin is used to dry the hands only. (6F-6)

Note again the part I underlined. If resin transfers to the ball it is considered a foreign substance.

While I agree these umpires were being picky, I don't think they were necessarily snookered by a clever coach. And, while resin is legally allowed to dry the hands, it is prohibited from being transferred to the ball.