Run scores?

[MD Longhorn]

Daily trivia (ASA): Bases loaded, 2 outs. The batter is walked, and she advances to 1st. The runner from 1st touches 2nd but oversteps the base, and a quick throw from the infield catches her for the 3rd out. She was tagged before the runner from 3rd touched home. Does the run count?

I know we've hashed this before... I need proof (or I need you to prove I'm wrong ... hopefully not that one though!)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Daily trivia (ASA): Bases loaded, 2 outs. The batter is walked, and she advances to 1st. The runner from 1st touches 2nd but oversteps the base, and a quick throw from the infield catches her for the 3rd out. She was tagged before the runner from 3rd touched home. Does the run count?

I know we've hashed this before... I need proof (or I need you to prove I'm wrong ... hopefully not that one though!)

Am I missing something, or how can the run count if "She was tagged before the runner from 3rd touched home"?

[AtlUmpSteve]

It scores in NFHS and NCAA; it does not score in ASA.

The only "awarded" base is the batter-runner awarded first base; by definition, the other runners are forced, until they are not!! And thus protected while advancing to the next base, but still not "awarded" the next base. If the third out is made before the R1 touches home, no run scores on that timing play.

I do not understand the rationale in NFHS and NCAA, but they both have approved rulings (to the best of my memory of the top of my head) that indicate the run scores, using a theory not defined anywhere that each runner is somehow awarded the next base, even as the third out removes the force that is advancing them.

[RKBUmp]

I seem to remember an ASA clarification that on a walk, if the 3rd out was made prior to the runner from 3rd crossing the plate, the run did not count. Will go back and search the clarifications. I cant find it in the case book I have access to.

Cant find it in clarifications either, but Im certain Ive seen a ruling on it somewhere.

[MD Longhorn]

Y'all are along the same lines as me. However, in the discussion group where this has come up (the softball.com facebook group), most are going the other way, and the moderator just did as well - hence me bringing it here.

[RKBUmp]

They are citing 8-5-A as their basis for ruling the run scores. Sure, the rule says runners are not liable to be put out when forced to advance on the awarded base. It does not protect them if they pass the base they are forced to. Would seem to me it now becomes a timing play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Daily trivia (ASA): Bases loaded, 2 outs. The batter is walked, and she advances to 1st. The runner from 1st touches 2nd but oversteps the base, and a quick throw from the infield catches her for the 3rd out. She was tagged before the runner from 3rd touched home. Does the run count?

I know we've hashed this before... I need proof (or I need you to prove I'm wrong ... hopefully not that one though!)

The interpretation is really simple. The NFHS & NCAA interpretation actually changes long standing rule of the game simply to cover stupidity on the bases.

Runners are not awarded bases on a walk, the batter is. The ball is live. The runner is not protected by any rule to anywhere other than the base to which they are forced. R3 is clearly in jeopardy and was retired prior to R1 scoring. 5.5.B.2 is clear on not scoring the run. Even if you want to us 8.5.A, R3 still doesn't score since R1 being ruled out removes the force which provides for the advancement without jeopardy of being put out. That makes the advance an attempted steal and there is no protection of any type there

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The interpretation is really simple. The NFHS & NCAA interpretation actually changes long standing rule of the game simply to cover stupidity on the bases.

Runners are not awarded bases on a walk, the batter is.

I don't have my book in front of me, but I don't believe that the batter is "awarded" 1st base on a walk. I believe that the rule changed at least 5 years ago, maybe as many as 8 years ago, so that the batter is no longer awarded 1st base. Now, by rule, if the batter entered the dugout (let's say the batter was a pitcher and wanted to get her jacket), she could be declared out.

Maybe someone with a rule book in front of them can post the actual rule.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

I don't have my book in front of me, but I don't believe that the batter is "awarded" 1st base on a walk. I believe that the rule changed at least 5 years ago, maybe as many as 8 years ago, so that the batter is no longer awarded 1st base. Now, by rule, if the batter entered the dugout (let's say the batter was a pitcher and wanted to get her jacket), she could be declared out.

Maybe someone with a rule book in front of them can post the actual rule.

"8-1-C: The batter becomes a batter-runner when four balls have been called by the umpire. The batter-runner is awarded first base."

Pretty straightforward...

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

"8-1-C: The batter becomes a batter-runner when four balls have been called by the umpire. The batter-runner is awarded first base."

Pretty straightforward...

Agree, although possibly superseded by things like INT, running lane (NFHS), but what about abandonment during a live ball?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Agree, although possibly superseded by things like INT, running lane (NFHS), but what about abandonment during a live ball?

Here's what I was thinking of:

Rule 8-2-D: The BR is out when the BR fails to advance to 1st base and enters the team area after a base on balls.

Even though she is awarded a base, she is still liable to be called out for entering dead ball territory.