Show intent on going to 2nd

[bsnalex]

A few weeks ago I had this come up--

BR safe at first on the throw and then gently turns into the infield - he was probably a yard overrun from first and maybe 1 - 2 feet infield off the baseline. What I noticed when he was safe is that he did not continue his overrun nor peel off to the right. His left shoulder turned inward and to me, while he didn't show blatant intent to go on to 2nd he certainly made no point of showing me as a blue that he WASN'T going to 2nd.

At that point first baseman turned around and tagged him and I called him out on the tag at which point I got some jaw from one of my fellow umpires who was not working the game, but observing.

He told me (in front of both teams!) that I got the call wrong and that the runner should only be out if he showed intent on going to 2nd. I felt that as he turned his body inward that was intent enough for me. I pulled the player aside after the inning and told him (umps do this as it's a small league and we get alot of new players) that to avoid any doubt run straight thru the base and when you return, make sure you turn your body to the right and walk back to the base on the orange side of the base.

Can I have any thoughts on this? We use ISF book.

[RKBUmp]

First off I dont think any other umpire, even if you were being observed should have said anything during the game let alone in front of other teams. It should have waited until after the game when you were alone and could have discussed it in private.

I dont have an ISF rulebook, but in any other rule set there is no requirement the batter turn to the right or straight back down the line when returning to 1st after an overrun. It is perfectly legal for a batter to turn to the left as long as they do not make an aggressive move toward 2nd.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

First off I dont think any other umpire, even if you were being observed should have said anything during the game let alone in front of other teams. It should have waited until after the game when you were alone and could have discussed it in private.

I dont have an ISF rulebook, but in any other rule set there is no requirement the batter turn to the right or straight back down the line when returning to 1st after an overrun. It is perfectly legal for a batter to turn to the left as long as they do not make an aggressive move toward 2nd.

I'll echo RKBump's comment about your alleged fellow umpire. If anyone should be dressed down, it should have been him.

Secondly, this is obviously a judgment call. However, it is the umpire's responsibility to determine the runner is making an attempt to advance to 2nd, not the runner's to prove s/he is not.

At one time the training (at least in my area) included, probably somewhat similar as you have been told, that ANYTHING, dip of the shoulder, a look back to the left, even a slight drifting of the runner's path into fair territory, WAS to be considered an attempt. I never bought into that theory of dictating what an umpire is to judge.


Over the years, I have learned to use my brain. Okay, enough! IOW, if the runner did something which my eyes showed my brain to tell my gut I needed to react in a manner to take the runner to 2B, there was an attempt.

This isn't supposed to be a "gotcha" play just so the umpire can ring up one of the 42.

[Skahtboi]

I will echo the two previous posts on the alleged umpire who came out to talk to you in front of both teams.

I also agree with their assessment of your call.

[CecilOne]

Me too, on both counts. Even though it seems the call was incorrect, the "observer" was way more wrong.

What IM said about reading it is my guide as well.

But, I do think the advice given to the player to always turn right (as youth coaches teach) is what causes people to think that is the rule. Besides, a runner can turn right and still make an attempt toward 2nd. Not by rule, but physically.

[EsqUmp]

It's not just intent, but ATTEMPT. You have to actually ATTEMPT to advance toward 2nd base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bsnalex

His left shoulder turned inward and to me, while he didn't show blatant intent to go on to 2nd he certainly made no point of showing me as a blue that he WASN'T going to 2nd.

At that point first baseman turned around and tagged him and I called him out on the tag

Called him out for what? Bad call.

at which point I got some jaw from one of my fellow umpires who was not working the game, but observing. He told me (in front of both teams!) that I got the call wrong and that the runner should only be out if he showed intent on going to 2nd.

Worse. Way worse. No umpire should ever do this to another umpire. He's correct, of course, but calling you out, especially in front of teams, is worse than any bad call you could have made.

I felt that as he turned his body inward that was intent enough for me. I pulled the player aside after the inning and told him (umps do this as it's a small league and we get alot of new players) that to avoid any doubt run straight thru the base and when you return, make sure you turn your body to the right and walk back to the base on the orange side of the base.

And worse than worse. 1) You've instilled a rule that is not correct in this kid's mind. 2) You've coached the kid - not your job, don't ever do this. If it's a learning league, and your input might help, tell the COACH, not the kid (and be 150% sure you are correct when you're doing this... you were not in this case!)

PS - for you to have an out on this play, the player must make an attempt to advance to second. Period. He doesn't have to turn right. He doesn't have to walk back to first (he can run). What you describe was not even close to enough.

[bsnalex]

Thanks to all for your input...definitely will get it right next time