What is the Award?

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
"- carried by a fielder"

Or intentionally pushed, kicked, or thrown by a fielder. . . . .

WMB

Even in Southern California?

[WestMichBlue]

"Even in Southern California? "

In Southern Cal I can picture a centerfielder laying on her belly pushing a ball with her nose through a hole in the fence. However, by time the ball enters DBT the runner has probably scored - so the award is from home plate. In La La Land, two bases from home plate would put her at 2B - Right?

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
C-1: "Please be sure to recognize that "when the ball goes into dead ball territory" is not relevant."

Not relevent to what? Ball going out directly because of a throw? Agreed.

But there are several situations where awards are made from the base obtained at the time the ball went out of play."

You need to be a little more specific so you don't confuse the people that are trying to learn.

WMB

The discussion was pretty specific as this being on a thrown ball in an attempt to retire a runner.

Twist the thread and we will confuse those who are trying to learn.

[Hyzepher]

I still am unclear about the correct call - I understand that a runner ,having left 1st early and is between 2B & 3B at the time of the throw is awarded Home. But I am unclear whether the runner can tag up back at first having already passed second. Some posts have said that tagging back to 1st is not allowed and can be appealed and other posts say that once the runner passed 2nd they cannot return to tag up.

Clarity?

Hyzepher

[greymule]

In ASA, the runner can return to tag up at 1B even if he remains between 2B and 3B when the ball enters DBT. (A couple of years ago, he could not return; thus the un-updated POE contains the stipulation that he was between 2B and 1B). As I remember, in Fed he CANNOT return to 1B if he is on or beyond 2B when the ball enters DBT, even if he has initiated a return.

Here is the part that caused a lot of discussion in ASA, and this is my interpretation: the umpire is supposed to watch the runner after the ball enters DBT. If he starts to retreat to tag up, the ump waits until he tags up and then awards him home. If he proceeds toward 3B, the ump makes the award of home, but as soon as the runner touches 3B, he cannot legally return to tag up.

In ASA, where the runner is at the time the throw that entered DBT was made [my correction] governs the award of bases, no matter whether he has initiated a return. But it is what the runner does after the award is made, not after the time the ball entered DBT, that is key for whether he can return to correct a baserunning error.

Maybe this will help:

Runner leaves 1B too soon on a long fly. He is running toward 3B when the throw sails over F5 and enters DBT. Immediately afterward, the runner slides into 3B. In OBR, that runner would be considered to have proceeded to the next base after the ball became dead, and he would be prohibited from returning legally to tag up at 1B. But in ASA, the time of the award is key. If he proceeds toward home, the umpire makes the award of home. As soon as he touches home (the next base after the award, he cannot return to correct his baserunning error.

At least I think that's right!

[Edited by greymule on Aug 14th, 2003 at 02:31 PM]

[mdntranger]

While I agree with most of what Greymule says, the award is based on the position of the runner at the time of the throw...not when the ball goes dead.

[greymule]

Correct, mdntranger. Thanks. The following sentence should be revised:

"In ASA, where the runner is at the time the ball enters DBT governs the award of bases, no matter whether he has initiated a return."

It should read, ". . . where the runner is at the time the throw that entered DBT was made governs the award of bases . . ."

Where the runner happens to be at the time the ball enters DBT is relevant only to determining what he subsequently does to correct a baserunning error.

I will edit that post and note the correction.

[Tap]

Originally posted by greymule
If he proceeds toward 3B, the ump makes the award of home, but as soon as the runner touches 3B, he cannot legally return to tag up. [Edited by greymule on Aug 14th, 2003 at 02:31 PM] [/B]

By saying that the runner cannot "legally return to tag up," does this mean that the umpire should refuse to let the runner return (e.g. "runner, you can't go back to tag up") or should still let the runner return, and then call the runner out if properly appealed by the defense? My sense is the latter, as the former is a giveaway to the defense to appeal, though I had an instructor at a clinic tell me I should tell the runner she can't return.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Tap

By saying that the runner cannot "legally return to tag up," does this mean that the umpire should refuse to let the runner return (e.g. "runner, you can't go back to tag up") or should still let the runner return, and then call the runner out if properly appealed by the defense? My sense is the latter, as the former is a giveaway to the defense to appeal, though I had an instructor at a clinic tell me I should tell the runner she can't return. [/B]

The umpire should not stop them from returning to retouch any missed base or base left too soon. However, if an appeal is made, the umpire should ignore the runner's efforts and properly rule on the appeal as if the runner did not retouch the bag.