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Old Fri Aug 01, 2003, 08:01am
Tap Tap is offline
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This is a hypothetical, based on a discussion I had with an instructor at a recent clinic I attended. Fast-pitch game under Federation rules (I think ASA would be the same here). Runners on 2B and 3B, and 1 out. Neither are attempting to steal.

0-2 count. Batter swings and misses and is obstructed by F2 in the process. F2 misses ball and it rolls to fence.

I believe that it's a delayed dead ball and the runners can try to advance, and then the coach can take the result of the play or have the batter placed at 1B. After all, the winning run may score from 3B on the play. The instructor said it was a dead ball, as contrasted with obstruction of a runner. The rule book defines catcher's obstruction as a delayed dead ball, so I'm not sure how the instructor could have been correct. I think he agreed that this was true if the ball was hit, but not if the batter swung and missed.

Would it matter if the runners were at 1B and 3B and the BR was put out (i.e. no dropped 3rd strike in effect)? In other words, just like the play becomes dead when an obstructed runner is put out, I guess the same could be true when an obstructed batter is put out? And if so, I would presume that the umpire could award all baserunners the bases they would have attained but for the obstruction, i.e. if they were stealing (I know in a sqeeze situation, the runner from 3B will be awarded home).
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Old Fri Aug 01, 2003, 12:05pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tap
This is a hypothetical, based on a discussion I had with an instructor at a recent clinic I attended. Fast-pitch game under Federation rules (I think ASA would be the same here). Runners on 2B and 3B, and 1 out. Neither are attempting to steal.

0-2 count. Batter swings and misses and is obstructed by F2 in the process. F2 misses ball and it rolls to fence.

I believe that it's a delayed dead ball and the runners can try to advance, and then the coach can take the result of the play or have the batter placed at 1B. After all, the winning run may score from 3B on the play. The instructor said it was a dead ball, as contrasted with obstruction of a runner. The rule book defines catcher's obstruction as a delayed dead ball, so I'm not sure how the instructor could have been correct. I think he agreed that this was true if the ball was hit, but not if the batter swung and missed.

Would it matter if the runners were at 1B and 3B and the BR was put out (i.e. no dropped 3rd strike in effect)? In other words, just like the play becomes dead when an obstructed runner is put out, I guess the same could be true when an obstructed batter is put out? And if so, I would presume that the umpire could award all baserunners the bases they would have attained but for the obstruction, i.e. if they were stealing (I know in a sqeeze situation, the runner from 3B will be awarded home).
Without the benefit of a rule book to refer to, here is my interpretation:

I think the delayed dead ball is only in effect if the ball is hit. If the B/R reaches first safely and all other baserunners advance at least one base, the CO is dropped. If the ball is hit and the B/R does not reach first or the baserunners do not advance at least one base, the coach has the option of the result of the play or accepting the penalty.

In the scenario presented, the ball was not hit, so it becomes dead immediately and the B/R is awarded first base.

I'm sure I will be corrected if wrong.

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Old Fri Aug 01, 2003, 08:07pm
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Very good question, a fun one even with a FED rule book. 8.1.1.d Effect, is the rule. As mentioned above, it gives no specifics as to when the delayed dead ball situation ends. But the case book seems to have the answers.

8.1.1 SITUATION G: R1 on third. R1 starts home as in a squeeze play. F3, who is playing close for a bunt, cuts off the pitch and tags R1. RULING: This is treated the same as catcher obstruction. The ball becomes dead at the end of playing action... [Emphasis added.]

If the ball stays alive until the end of the playing action, that would allow the runners to advance on the passed ball mentioned in the initial play of this thread.

The rule also states that the delayed dead ball does not become dead as soon as an out is made. See rule 8.1.1.d and case book 8.1.1 SITUATION I. If the ball was dead the instant an out was made, how could a runner score on a sac fly?
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Old Fri Aug 01, 2003, 10:09pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tap
This is a hypothetical, based on a discussion I had with an instructor at a recent clinic I attended. Fast-pitch game under Federation rules (I think ASA would be the same here). Runners on 2B and 3B, and 1 out. Neither are attempting to steal.

0-2 count. Batter swings and misses and is obstructed by F2 in the process. F2 misses ball and it rolls to fence.

I believe that it's a delayed dead ball and the runners can try to advance, and then the coach can take the result of the play or have the batter placed at 1B. After all, the winning run may score from 3B on the play. The instructor said it was a dead ball, as contrasted with obstruction of a runner. The rule book defines catcher's obstruction as a delayed dead ball, so I'm not sure how the instructor could have been correct. I think he agreed that this was true if the ball was hit, but not if the batter swung and missed.

Would it matter if the runners were at 1B and 3B and the BR was put out (i.e. no dropped 3rd strike in effect)? In other words, just like the play becomes dead when an obstructed runner is put out, I guess the same could be true when an obstructed batter is put out? And if so, I would presume that the umpire could award all baserunners the bases they would have attained but for the obstruction, i.e. if they were stealing (I know in a sqeeze situation, the runner from 3B will be awarded home).
Since you brought up ASA, I'll respond in that manner.

I think the instructor would be wrong. Though the rule does not specifically address a swing and miss involving CO, I believe it since the ball has basically been put into play by the catcher's failure to catch the third strike prior to the ball touching the ground, the same rule would apply. The ball is live until the BR is retired or all play is obviously complete.

If R1 scores and R2 moves to 3B as the BR safely reaches 1B, then the CO would be dropped and any further advance would be at the runner's risk of being put out.

If either of the runner's failed to safely advance one base or the BR failed to reach 1B safely, the manager would have the option of the CO or the result of the play.

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Old Sat Aug 02, 2003, 01:11pm
Tap Tap is offline
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CO

Mike,

So in ASA if the ball is live until the BR is retired, then this presumably would mean that -- had 1B and 3B been occupied with 1 out -- the batter would have been put out upon swinging and missing, thus the ball would be dead, which would make the bases loaded. In other words, the dead ball would preclude the runner from 3B from scoring (i.e., it would not be within the umpire's discretion to award the baserunner home, as it was not a sqeeze play? [for a squeeze, I know the runner is awarded home]).

[Edited by Tap on Aug 2nd, 2003 at 01:56 PM]
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Old Sat Aug 02, 2003, 07:48pm
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Re: CO

Quote:
Originally posted by Tap
Mike,

So in ASA if the ball is live until the BR is retired, then this presumably would mean that -- had 1B and 3B been occupied with 1 out -- the batter would have been put out upon swinging and missing, thus the ball would be dead, which would make the bases loaded. In other words, the dead ball would preclude the runner from 3B from scoring (i.e., it would not be within the umpire's discretion to award the baserunner home, as it was not a sqeeze play? [for a squeeze, I know the runner is awarded home]).

[Edited by Tap on Aug 2nd, 2003 at 01:56 PM]
Though not directly addressed by ASA, it would seem to be the logical call.
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Old Sun Aug 03, 2003, 05:00am
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catcher obstruction

the rule states co is enforced if batter doesn't reach 1st and all other runners do not advance at least 1 base.

The fact that she swings and misses is probably BECAUSE of the obstruction.

The instructor was wrong. You would award the batter 1st base and 3rd and home to the runners. It doesn't matter if they were attempting to steal or not.

Unless of course the coach chose the result of the play but why would he?
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Old Sun Aug 03, 2003, 10:09am
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I would say possibly "BECAUSE of the obstruction", but regardless, CO is assumed to prevent the BR from reaching safely. Therefore the BR gets 1st, forced runners advance; assuming the coach doesn't choose the result. CO should be a delayed dead because otherwise you would not know the result that the option includes. But it becomes dead in this case when the "obstructee" is put out, either by a throw to 1st or the 3rd strike being caught.
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Old Sun Aug 03, 2003, 12:18pm
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#1 - NHFS or ASA - CO is defined as hindering the batter from hitting or swinging at the ball.

#2 - CO is a delayed dead ball.

Thus, delayed dead ball is the correct call and you wait for the end of action. Either the B-R reaches first and other runners advance, or B-R or other runner is put out. Then, depending on the results, either cancel the CO, or call time and provide the option to the coach.

In the other scenario where you have a runner on 1B, then you signal CO (delayed dead ball), call the B-R out (preventative umpiring to keep her from running to 1B), and wait for action to end. Then, because B-R did not reach 1B, you go to the coach.

If the ball went to the backstop, we will assume that R3 scored from 3B and R1 went all the way to 3B. Interesting dilemma for the coach - do you want the run scored, a runner at 3B, now with 2 outs? Or no score, but bases loaded with 1 out?

WMB

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Old Mon Aug 04, 2003, 06:05am
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Quote:
Originally posted by WestMichBlue

Thus, delayed dead ball is the correct call and you wait for the end of action. Either the B-R reaches first and other runners advance, or B-R or other runner is put out. Then, depending on the results, either cancel the CO, or call time and provide the option to the coach.
Speaking ASA, anyone other than the BR being put out is irrelevant to the play. That out would remain.
Quote:
In the other scenario where you have a runner on 1B, then you signal CO (delayed dead ball), call the B-R out (preventative umpiring to keep her from running to 1B), and wait for action to end. Then, because B-R did not reach 1B, you go to the coach.
Once you call the BR out, by rule, the ball is dead and the play has ended. Any subsequent action is nullified
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Old Mon Aug 04, 2003, 08:41am
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Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
... snip ... Once you call the BR out, by rule, the ball is dead and the play has ended. Any subsequent action is nullified
My understanding is that means subsequent to the ball becoming dead, not subsequent to the CO.
In the uncaught strike 3 case with the BR thrown out at 1st, the runner(s) could have advanced before the out.
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Old Mon Aug 04, 2003, 09:21am
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Quote:
Originally posted by CecilOne
Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
... snip ... Once you call the BR out, by rule, the ball is dead and the play has ended. Any subsequent action is nullified
My understanding is that means subsequent to the ball becoming dead, not subsequent to the CO.
In the uncaught strike 3 case with the BR thrown out at 1st, the runner(s) could have advanced before the out.
Speaking ASA.

I don't understand your post. The word subsequent means to follow in time, order or place. I clearly stated that "time" to be that which followed the BR being ruled out.

If you are ruling the BR was put out, it is a dead ball, not a delayed dead ball. Therefore, there is no action to wait on whether the runner on first is stealing, returning or doing back-flips toward right field
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Old Mon Aug 04, 2003, 09:46am
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Right, clear enough. Sorry to be vague. Just confirming for others that runner(s) can advance if they make it before the BR is out.
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Old Mon Aug 04, 2003, 11:56am
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Wait a minute, Mike. "Once you call the BR out, by rule, the ball is dead and the play has ended. Any subsequent action is nullified"

Runners on 1B and 3B, less than 2 outs, CO on F2, batter swings and misses 3rd strike, F2 misses ball.

Batter is out immediately (1B occupied), but ball is rolling to the backstop and R3 is coming home. Are you going to call Dead Ball and sent R3 back? Seems as though the ball should remain alive until all play has ended.

I think that would be unfair to the offense. Not allowing the run to score would reward the defensive violation. If the run scores, the offense should have the option to either take the play (run scores and batter is out), or the penalty (return R3 and award 1B to B-R).

Are you sure that ASA requires you to stop all play the instant the obstructed player is put out? What if we have R2 on 2B and Batter hits single. BR obstructed by F3 as she tries for 2B. R9 throws out BR at 2B. R2 had rounded 3B and when she saw throw going to 2B she went home.

But R2 is only halfway home when BR is called out and DEAD BALL is called! Now what? You stopped play before all action had ceased. What do we do with R2?

WMB
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Old Mon Aug 04, 2003, 01:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Wait a minute, Mike. "Once you call the BR out, by rule, the ball is dead and the play has ended. Any subsequent action is nullified"

Runners on 1B and 3B, less than 2 outs, CO on F2, batter swings and misses 3rd strike, F2 misses ball.

Batter is out immediately (1B occupied), but ball is rolling to the backstop and R3 is coming home. Are you going to call Dead Ball and sent R3 back? Seems as though the ball should remain alive until all play has ended.

I think that would be unfair to the offense. Not allowing the run to score would reward the defensive violation. If the run scores, the offense should have the option to either take the play (run scores and batter is out), or the penalty (return R3 and award 1B to B-R).

Are you sure that ASA requires you to stop all play the instant the obstructed player is put out? What if we have R2 on 2B and Batter hits single. BR obstructed by F3 as she tries for 2B. R9 throws out BR at 2B. R2 had rounded 3B and when she saw throw going to 2B she went home.

But R2 is only halfway home when BR is called out and DEAD BALL is called! Now what? You stopped play before all action had ceased. What do we do with R2?

WMB
I understand what you are saying and tend to agree to a point.

As I have noted, ASA does not specifically address CO in conjuction with a swing and miss or D3K. However, if you follow the logic, say the CO occurs on a batter who hits a line drive back to the pitcher. Are you going to let play continue to see what happens or kill the play because the player obstructed has been retired? Or are you going to just let things continue until all the runners are put out, score or just stop on their bases?

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