catcher's obstruction

[WestMichBlue]

" say the CO occurs on a batter who hits a line drive back to the pitcher. Are you going to let play continue to see what happens or kill the play because the player obstructed has been retired? Or are you going to just let things continue until all the runners are put out, score or just stop on their bases?"

IMO, you should let the play come to a natural conclusion. What if F1 tried to double up R3 and threw it away. Should not R3 be allowed to score? Shouldn't the offense have the option of taking the play (run scored, batter out) or the penalty (R3 back to 3B, Batter awarded 1b)?

What if F1 threw it into DBT? Now you have Dead Ball to kill the play BEFORE your delayed Dead Ball is called. If you had R2 and R3, the offense would get 2 runs awarded. Then you still have to go to the coach.

In NFHS I believe that I am supported for letting the play run. But I do a lot of game under ASA so I am looking for the answer there.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
" say the CO occurs on a batter who hits a line drive back to the pitcher. Are you going to let play continue to see what happens or kill the play because the player obstructed has been retired? Or are you going to just let things continue until all the runners are put out, score or just stop on their bases?"

IMO, you should let the play come to a natural conclusion. What if F1 tried to double up R3 and threw it away. Should not R3 be allowed to score? Shouldn't the offense have the option of taking the play (run scored, batter out) or the penalty (R3 back to 3B, Batter awarded 1b)?

What if F1 threw it into DBT? Now you have Dead Ball to kill the play BEFORE your delayed Dead Ball is called. If you had R2 and R3, the offense would get 2 runs awarded. Then you still have to go to the coach.

In NFHS I believe that I am supported for letting the play run. But I do a lot of game under ASA so I am looking for the answer there.

WMB

Well, we can "what if" this to death. As I said, ASA doesn't address this issue directly, even in the Case Book.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with your stance, just cannot find anything to support or disprove it.

Remembering that we are refering to a batter being obstructed on a swing and miss who is not entitled to run to 1B. Once again, taking my cue from other obstruction calls (for now as I will be asking this question of a higher authority), I'm going to kill the play if the violated player is ruled out.

BTW, the 'swing' of the batter is considered a play, but that's is where ASA stops on the CO call not involving a batted ball or it's effect on an illegal pitch.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I'm going to kill the play if the violated player is ruled out.

One of our greatest benefits on this board is that we have people like you that have the contacts to get definitive rulings. We appreciate that Mike.

But, I think you know the answer already. Are you saying that you would never allow a sac fly to the right fielder on CO? I don't think so, and thus by conclusion, the play is not killed when a violated player is ruled out.

(The reference allowing this long sac fly in NFHS is 8.1.1 Situation "I" in the case book. I'm betting there is similar in the ASA book.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by SC Ump

One of our greatest benefits on this board is that we have people like you that have the contacts to get definitive rulings. We appreciate that Mike.

But, I think you know the answer already. Are you saying that you would never allow a sac fly to the right fielder on CO? I don't think so, and thus by conclusion, the play is not killed when a violated player is ruled out.

(The reference allowing this long sac fly in NFHS is 8.1.1 Situation "I" in the case book. I'm betting there is similar in the ASA book.)

Dan,

I'm dealing with a swing and a miss here. Yes, on a batted ball, you are correct that there may be an option. However, ASA does not address a swing and a miss when the batter is not eligible to advance to first.

[Dakota]

There is a real conundrum here. On ordinary obstruction calls, when the obstructed runner is OUT before reaching the protected base, there is a dead ball. The delayed dead ball in this case is to allow the runner to advance and/or continue beyond the protection with liability, etc., and/or to allow the defense to get outs on other runners, etc.

With catcher's obstruction, the delayed dead ball is (in part) to allow the coach a choice of play or penalty. The issue of coach's choice does not come in to play with an ordinary obstruction call.

The immediate dead ball when the BR is out is justifiable according to the rules, allowing only the penalty to be assessed.

But, so is the letting the play finish justifiable according to the rules, allowing the coach the choice.

I am very interested in hearing an official ruling on this.

Until then, I am in the "let the play continue" camp, due to the additional aspect of coach's choice with CO.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

On catcher obstruction, the batter is given the benefit of the doubt - he was going to get a hit.

Even if the batter DOES hit the ball, play continues until you see the result. If all runners advance and BR gets to first, the play stands just as if there was no obstruction by the catcher. If all runners do not advance... say the BR flies out or is thrown out at first then play stops. Now the offensive coach gets his choice of the results or the umpire awards the batter first base and advances other runners only if they are forced.

If the batter DOES NOT hit the ball, play is dead.

I tend to think of a dropped 3rd strike as a hit (given the necessary conditions) - the BR has opportunity to advance. If the BR tries to advance or other runners try to advance, I'm going to let play continue. If the BR stops AND ALL OTHER RUNNERS stop due to the obstruction then I will kill the play and award as appropriate.

In general, I'm going to let the play continue so when it is finished I will have a choice and can clean-up the mess at that time... I can always go back and rule the ball dead at the time of obstruction... if I need to, or feel that is the right answer.

I am not going to feel the play is done if no one has control of the ball (due to the obstruction the ball gets behind the catcher and runners are advancing on the passed ball... play continues and we will figure it out later). I would never call a dead ball unless there is an absolute reason that the ball must be dead and those reasons are specifically spelled out in the rules.

Perhaps the runner from 3rd will score (or be tagged out) and the BR will stand there and not attempt to run or get to 1st base safely. Now I've got a choice for the coach... results of the play or dead ball at time of obstruction and BR gets 1st others go back to base and advance only if forced due to BR being placed on 1st.

Pitch the ball quickly before we change our minds!

[IRISHMAFIA]

A lot of good discussion here, and there is always going to be a question, so let's add a twist

Let's say, R2 on 1, running with the pitch, R1 on 3 comes halfway with the pitch. The batter takes a full swing, is obstructed and misses the ball. However, the batter is hit by the pitch.

Watcha' gonna do now?

[CecilOne]

The rule on canceling the CO only mentions the batter hitting the ball ... . The next clause in the book is "Otherwise ...", the coach's option. So if we take the book literally, the coach's option applies to all these examples that don't include batting the ball, even though most rules apply across the board to the B becoming a BR.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
A lot of good discussion here, and there is always going to be a question, so let's add a twist

Let's say, R2 on 1, running with the pitch, R1 on 3 comes halfway with the pitch. The batter takes a full swing, is obstructed and misses the ball. However, the batter is hit by the pitch.

Watcha' gonna do now?

Too Funny...

Batter hit by pitch... immediate dead ball. All runner progress stops. Put batter on first for the obstruction.

Shoot the fat lady if she tries to sing.

[WestMichBlue]

I did some studying tonight - NFHS Rule and Case Book, ASA Rules and POE (don't have ASA Case Book) - and these are my conclusions.

#1 - Rules 8 in both books are 90% identical. So rules defining runner obs and catcher obs are the same. Actions and penalties are the same.

#2 - ASA POE 35 states, for both types of OBS, that dead ball is called when the obstructed player is called out. Then any other runners will either be advanced to the next base, or returned to the last base touched, using a "half-way" rule.

#3 - NFHS Case Book agrees with this for obstructed runners (only).

#4 - NFHS Case Book section on CO says to let the play run to conclusion before calling dead ball (even though the runner was out earlier).

Two situations.

A) R1 on 2B, batted ball into outfield, B-R obstructed by F3 and is put out at 2B. Call dead ball and protect B-R to 2B. If R1 had rounded 3B and was more than half-way home when umpire called dead ball, she is sent home. ASA or NFHS - same call.

B) R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 1 out, 2 strikes. Obstructed batter missed 3rd strike; F2 missed ball. ASA - batter is out and Dead Ball called. B-R awarded 1B, R2 forced to 2B, and because R1 probably was not half-way home when ball become dead, she is sent back to 3B.

NFHS - Batter is called out, but play continues while F2 chases ball and R1 comes home and F1 comes to make a play. Assume R1 safe, then call dead ball - and call out the offensive coach. Option: take the play (run scores, batter out, R2 now on 2B) or take the penalty (B-R to 1B, R2 forced to 2B, R1 returned to 3B).

Potentially big differences in outcome for CO in ASA vs NFHS.

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
I did some studying tonight - NFHS Rule and Case Book, ASA Rules and POE (don't have ASA Case Book) - and these are my conclusions.

The situation is not addressed in the ASA Case Book.

B) R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 1 out, 2 strikes. Obstructed batter missed 3rd strike; F2 missed ball. ASA - batter is out and Dead Ball called. B-R awarded 1B, R2 forced to 2B, and because R1 probably was not half-way home when ball become dead, she is sent back to 3B.

NFHS - Batter is called out, but play continues while F2 chases ball and R1 comes home and F1 comes to make a play. Assume R1 safe, then call dead ball - and call out the offensive coach. Option: take the play (run scores, batter out, R2 now on 2B) or take the penalty (B-R to 1B, R2 forced to 2B, R1 returned to 3B).

Potentially big differences in outcome for CO in ASA vs NFHS.

Since ASA does not address this situation, and since ASA does make a distinction for other purposes between obstruction of a runner and catcher's obstruction of a batter, ASA (as currently written / POE'd / Case Booked) does not require that the dead ball be called immediately. IOW, without an official ruling from ASA, I would not automatically assume that 8-5B-1 applies to 8-1D. ASA, in fact, says that it does not by stating in 8-5B-4,

Catcher obstruction on the batter is covered under Rule 8, Section 1D.

Therefore, following the Fed ruling would be an acceptable application of the ASA rules for this situation, IMO.