Correct Mechanic on Unusual Play

[Far far away ..]

3 man system, I'm U1.

R1 on 1st. Batter hits to F6, who fumbles and then drops the ball and then makes a desperate attempt to flip the ball to F4 and drags him a couple of steps off 2B. F4 now has to turn and try and get back to 2nd base. What should have been a simple force (and probable double play) now becomes a foot race which R1 wins in a bang bang play.

So far so good!

Problem is the runner was busting such a gut to get there they over-ran the base and so are straight back in jeopardy of being tagged out.

Defence assume they got the out and so aren't doing much. Offensive coach twigs what's going on and roars at runner to get back on base - which they do safely.

So - to my question. Should I have given an emphatic safe call on the bang bang play despite the runner being back in jeopardy - or is my non-call enough to let everyone know that the play hasn't finished yet? By the way PU knew full well what was going on because he wasn't calling time while all this was going on.

After a visit from a the defensive coach, who was disappointed when I didn't ask U3 for help because "it was all in front of me coach and I'm happy with the call" I wondered if a quick safe call would have been the right thing to do or if I had it right.

[RKBUmp]

If you had a runner on 1st, why were you making calls at 2nd? U3 should have been behind 2nd base making those calls.

[shagpal]

Maybe runners on first and second, and OP got sitch confused? Looks that way.

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

If you had a runner on 1st, why were you making calls at 2nd? U3 should have been behind 2nd base making those calls.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Far far away ..

3 man system, I'm U1.

R1 on 1st. Batter hits to F6, who fumbles and then drops the ball and then makes a desperate attempt to flip the ball to F4 and drags him a couple of steps off 2B. F4 now has to turn and try and get back to 2nd base. What should have been a simple force (and probable double play) now becomes a foot race which R1 wins in a bang bang play.

So far so good!

Problem is the runner was busting such a gut to get there they over-ran the base and so are straight back in jeopardy of being tagged out.

Defence assume they got the out and so aren't doing much. Offensive coach twigs what's going on and roars at runner to get back on base - which they do safely.

So - to my question. Should I have given an emphatic safe call on the bang bang play despite the runner being back in jeopardy - or is my non-call enough to let everyone know that the play hasn't finished yet? By the way PU knew full well what was going on because he wasn't calling time while all this was going on.

After a visit from a the defensive coach, who was disappointed when I didn't ask U3 for help because "it was all in front of me coach and I'm happy with the call" I wondered if a quick safe call would have been the right thing to do or if I had it right.

RKB's good question aside, if there was a play, there should be a call. Emphasis would have to be determined by you, but if it was close enough that both sides may have thought they were good, a strong sell may have been appropriate.

[Manny A]

Did enough time lapse between the time when R1 reached second base initially and then got back to the bag? You may not have had enough time to make the initial call. No different than when a runner overslides second base on a straight steal. But if there was a good gap between the two plays, a call on the first play should have been made.

That said, I don't see how your non-call would be a problem. If the teams didn't hear a clear, emphatic OUT! call on the first play, they should have known something was still amiss.

[MD Longhorn]

Sounds like this wasn't your call ... but to answer the general question - if you have a play, make a call. The players and coaches are relying on that in order to decide what to do next.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Sounds like this wasn't your call ... but to answer the general question - if you have a play, make a call. The players and coaches are relying on that in order to decide what to do next.

I agree with this. I had had this situation several times. I have always made the initial call, then watched what happens after.

One I had this spring (fp 2 person NFHS) was a play at 3b. R3 at 3b, R2 at 2b, R1 at 1b 2 outs. Slow Ground ball to the 3b, who has to run back towards third. R2 just beats F5 to the base, but she overruns the base. I make the safe call emphatically, then as the tag is applied following the over-run I have "out on the tag". The defensive coach was out of the dugout questioning why the run scored on the play (the girl on 3b was a speedster, the one on second, was a big power hitter, but not speedy). The ruling was simple. The run scored before the out was made. Since the out was not a force out, this was a timing play and the run scored before the out. The coach later admitted he knew it was the right call, but had to come out and question it for the parents who were complaining.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Two thoughts here.

First one, what others are saying; there was a play at 2nd, there needs to be a call. Sure, there is a new play with the runner in jeopardy, but call the first one.

Second thought; by not making a call, aren't you telling others something? Same as play at plate where runner misses the plate, we do NOT (well, except for NCAA) do a no-call, tipping the defense that there is still a play. As umpires, that's not our role.

So, call the safe, emphasis as needed; then let the players finish the play as the results sink in.

[Far far away ..]

To everyone who spotted the setup mistake - there was also a runner on 2B who (other than defining U1 and U3 starting positions) had no bearing on the play.

I agree with the feedback that I should have made a call on the foot race.

Not sure I agree with AtlUmpSteve that not making a call is tipping one team or the other - the plays you describe are ones that require an appeal and this wasn't that case, it was either safe or out.

[shagpal]

I agree you, nothing is NOTHING, no matter what a coach would try make of nothing. She is safe till out. No different than signaling a "that's nothing" SAFE on a batted ball coming close to a runner.

The smartest player would figure it out tho, but also agree with "Steve", signaling a status is proper, signaling SAFE conveys "that's nothing" yet.

Just don't go doing a sell safe. Sells kinda convey a final decision.

Originally Posted by Far far away ..

To everyone who spotted the setup mistake - there was also a runner on 2B who (other than defining U1 and U3 starting positions) had no bearing on the play.

I agree with the feedback that I should have made a call on the foot race.

Not sure I agree with AtlUmpSteve that not making a call is tipping one team or the other - the plays you describe are ones that require an appeal and this wasn't that case, it was either safe or out.

[MD Longhorn]

Signalling SAFE tells everyone that the attempt to put someone out has failed. Signalling nothing or doing nothing just confuses everyone.

[SWFLguy]

Kind of similar to the play at the plate where both the catcher misses the tag and the runner misses the plate. You wait a bit then give a "soft" safe signal. If the defense catches on and tags the runner, you bang the out. If not you give a solid safe call. I had that in a men's slo-pitch playoff final to end the game. Yes, it was fun selling it all. Of course half the people there thought I changed my call.