This was clunky...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There has to be a reason that this issue comes up on multiple forums multiple times a year. There is a common thread as well: The umpire didn't go for help right away. Usually, all $h!t breaks loose, even if the game ends all warm and fuzzy.

You know what you don't see? Umpires who go for help right away posting this issue.

This has nothing to do with appeasing coaches, because I appease them as much as I do clones on this forum. It has to do with getting the call right as quickly as possible and doing it on my own, not at the request of the coaches. One way to keep coaches in the dugout is to get calls correct. That's what I prefer to do.

I've always said to be prepared to help your partner out, but not to the detriment of your own calls. Here, we have a runner on 3rd. The plate umpire ought to move up the 3rd base line and keep on eye on the play, while checking for obstruction at 3rd base. That's not so difficult. If you can't do that with two eyes and a head that can rotate, you ought to quit officiating and perhaps see a doctor. The plate umpire's angle is going to be better than the base umpire's angle for at least 40 feet up the 3rd base line from home plate.

Proof, meet pudding.

Proof? Are you one of these people who just keep on throwing shit while screaming "roses" hoping that eventually, everyone will believe it is roses?

Opinions are not evidence of proof, right Puddin'?

I disagree with your opinion based on my 46+ years of experience in multiple games at multiple levels. I have always made the call first, even in 1966 when I was doing baseball & have never had a problem. As I've said before, response of the teams is usually that of appreciation of at least checking. And that was probably quite a bit before ASA decided to take that stance, so this isn't a following the leader thing.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I have always made the call first, even in 1966 when I was doing baseball & have never had a problem.

Interesting, since the approved mechanic in baseball (at least it was in the years I actively umpired the game, which was from 1997 until 2011) is to request help first if--and only if--you feel there is something you didn't see. For example, the throw is slightly off line causing the first baseman to make a long stretch, or the first baseman has to make a swipe tag. On routine plays where the first baseman should have been able to easily stay on the bag, there is no need to get help before making the call.

And because that's the case in baseball, PUs always look to provide help in those cases. Any umpire worth his/her salt will watch that play at first, even when he/she has other base running responsibilities, such as a runner rounding third. Yes, a touch of third is his/her first priority, but chances that the runner will hit third at the precise moment that the play takes place at first are slim. So he/she should be able to handle both requirements. And if he/she can't, that's just the nature of the two-man beast.

So I believe that's the primary reason why this comes up so often. Many umpires have worked both baseball and softball, and the mechanic for this particular situation is 180 out, at least in my experience after having attended many baseball clinics in the past.

[MD Longhorn]

Mechanics that might work on a 90 foot diamond are not always useful on a 60 foot diamond. When it takes 12-15 steps for a runner to get from one base to another, there's a greater likelihood that said runner will not be at or near a base when the action happens at first base. With 8-10 steps, coincidental action is far more likely.

As PU, YES, you want to see the play at first base if possible, but not to the detriment of seeing your primary responsibilities.

Also ... ASA and NFHS both train BU to make the call, and go for help WHEN REQUESTED. If you're the guy who makes no call, asks for help, and then makes a call --- you're the guy that caused the S-Storm in the OP when he did it correctly, and coaches are expecting incorrect mechanics because the coach saw you do it your way.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Also ... ASA and NFHS both train BU to make the call, and go for help WHEN REQUESTED.

Is that also what is taught on a wild pitch/passed ball with two strikes where the PU feels the batter checked his/her swing, and the uncaught third strike situation is in play? Does the PU not go for help until it is requested?

If so, that's another mechanic that is different in baseball. When that happens in baseball, the PU goes to his/her partner immediately for a checked swing ruling, even if the defense doesn't initially ask.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Is that also what is taught on a wild pitch/passed ball with two strikes where the PU feels the batter checked his/her swing, and the uncaught third strike situation is in play? Does the PU not go for help until it is requested?

If so, that's another mechanic that is different in baseball. When that happens in baseball, the PU goes to his/her partner immediately for a checked swing ruling, even if the defense doesn't initially ask.

There is no requirement that the PU wait to be asked to go for help on a checked swing. The PU can initiate a request on his/her own.

I have been taught and I teach that with a check swing not initially called a strike and U3K situation, go for help immediately, don't wait to be asked.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

There is no requirement that the PU wait to be asked to go for help on a checked swing. The PU can initiate a request on his/her own.

I have been taught and I teach that with a check swing not initially called a strike and U3K situation, go for help immediately, don't wait to be asked.

Nah, it would make so much more sense to wait a while, let R3 from third score the tieing run while the BR does go because she only heard "ball." Wait a few more seconds, then ask for help, get the ol' yes she swung, as the catcher tags her out.

Sorry coach, line 'em up.

Wouldn't that make so much more sense? Just ask a clone!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Nah, it would make so much more sense to wait a while, let R3 from third score the tieing run while the BR does go because she only heard "ball." Wait a few more seconds, then ask for help, get the ol' yes she swung, as the catcher tags her out.

Sorry coach, line 'em up.

Wouldn't that make so much more sense? Just ask a clone!

Except that's not the teaching at the clone schools I've been to. On a D3K check swing, PU should ask for help immediately ... for exactly the reason that you would think they should.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Andy

There is no requirement that the PU wait to be asked to go for help on a checked swing. The PU can initiate a request on his/her own.

I have been taught and I teach that with a check swing not initially called a strike and U3K situation, go for help immediately, don't wait to be asked.

That's what I would do as well. But is that the ASA "approved solution"? Or do they teach the PU has to wait until someone requests that he/she go to his/her partner first?

There should be some consistency here. Either we always make the call first, or we always leave the door open to ask for help before making that call if need be. We subject ourselves to criticism if we can go for help without being asked on the checked swing, but we don't go for help without being asked on a potential pulled foot/swipe tag.

But that's just my opinion. When in Rome...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

We subject ourselves to criticism if we can go for help without being asked on the checked swing, but we don't go for help without being asked on a potential pulled foot/swipe tag.

1) So what? We subject ourselves to criticism when we walk on the field. If we are umpiring to avoid controversy, we are not umpiring.
2) No we don't. Two completely different situations; two completely different reasons for the mechanic.

[xtremeump]

So Irish you say in the bottom of the 7the inning of a FP game 2 outs home team down by one run. R1 on 3B, BR hits to F6 and the BU in C position with a possible
Pulled foot or swipe tag. Make the call, croud goes crazy, the home team throws there gloves up and starts to celebrate !!!!! Now the 1B coach asks you to ask for help and all of your posts you say you should go for help at that time. PU says she pulled her foot, I have live ball R1 scores From 3B to tie the game and the alert BR/R2 runs all the way home to win the game. I am just asking you is this the way you teach with 46 years of experience ? This year I am close to 100 games and I had to ask once and we got the call right.

[MD Longhorn]

If you've umpired as much as you claim, surely you're aware that we are responsible for placing runners in the event a changed (or erroneous) call places one team or the other at a disadvantage. BR stays at first.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

I have live ball R1 scores From 3B to tie the game and the alert BR/R2 runs all the way home to win the game.

No way in hell would the BR be allowed to score in this situation.

[Andy]

I can see both sides of this issue.

When I was starting out, I was trained under EA, who at that time advocated asking first before making the call. It was also being trained that the PU should be ready to help on the pulled foot, swipe tag, etc., in addition to other responsibilities.

I've since come to realize that there are instances where the PU may not be able to help due to other priorities with lead runners. I now adhere to the training of make the best call you can with the information you have, then go for help if necessary or requested. By waiting, you can kill the play, confer with partner(s), and make the call. Most of the time, going for help immediately before making the call will work, but making the call, then going for help, will work every time.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Proof? Are you one of these people who just keep on throwing shit while screaming "roses" hoping that eventually, everyone will believe it is roses?

Opinions are not evidence of proof, right Puddin'?

I disagree with your opinion based on my 46+ years of experience in multiple games at multiple levels. I have always made the call first, even in 1966 when I was doing baseball & have never had a problem. As I've said before, response of the teams is usually that of appreciation of at least checking. And that was probably quite a bit before ASA decided to take that stance, so this isn't a following the leader thing.

Learn to read. I'm not talking about opinions expressed when the question is raised whether to ask first and try to sort out the shit storm later. The point I raised is that multiple people bring this up every year. And the people who bring it up are always those who didn't think things went as smoothly as they could have and are seeking opinions and advise.

[EsqUmp]

It looks like the clones (not referring to anyone in particular so please safe your demerits) are demonstrating their vulnerability here.

There are umpires from all walks of life disagreeing with them and no despite the number of valid points brought up, they reject them all.

Considering not all associations even agree on the issue, it makes the "It's ASA's way or the highway" argument even weaker.