This was clunky...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

Why make the call, then go for help unrequested?

You will be asking either way, but asking after suggests you are willing to make up calls before making the call.

Because if you ask before, and remember, the PU is not your personal back-up, and s/he cannot provide help, you have no choice, but to rule the runner safe even though s/he may have been out by steps. If you didn't call the out, you obviously did not see anything to make you believe the runner out.

If you aren't going to make the call, why not just give up the call all together?

And, BTW, while you are checking with your partner on this, who is watching the other runners and defenders still playing the game? In my experience, the players and coaches want a call because they need it to do their job.

Other than those with the ancient baseball mentality who still believe that once an umpire makes a call, even God cannot change it, why would anyone have a problem in getting a ruling correct based on the facts and rule book? And I'm talking about umpires as much as coaches and players. Once knew an umpire who would turn back any game for which he was assigned a partner, actually two of them and both with the same reasoning. Neither wanted to have to worry about having a partner to which the teams could ask them to go to for help. Or as one idiot umpire put it, "I don't want anyone appealing my calls."

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
Don't you usually suggest checking immediately, after making the call?


Nope, and you have never heard me say that.

OK, my mistake, all ignore my earlier comments on this aspect.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There has to be a reason that this issue comes up on multiple forums multiple times a year. There is a common thread as well: The umpire didn't go for help right away. Usually, all $h!t breaks loose, even if the game ends all warm and fuzzy.

You know what you don't see? Umpires who go for help right away posting this issue.

This has nothing to do with appeasing coaches, because I appease them as much as I do clones on this forum. It has to do with getting the call right as quickly as possible and doing it on my own, not at the request of the coaches. One way to keep coaches in the dugout is to get calls correct. That's what I prefer to do.

I've always said to be prepared to help your partner out, but not to the detriment of your own calls. Here, we have a runner on 3rd. The plate umpire ought to move up the 3rd base line and keep on eye on the play, while checking for obstruction at 3rd base. That's not so difficult. If you can't do that with two eyes and a head that can rotate, you ought to quit officiating and perhaps see a doctor. The plate umpire's angle is going to be better than the base umpire's angle for at least 40 feet up the 3rd base line from home plate.

Proof, meet pudding.

Proof? Are you one of these people who just keep on throwing shit while screaming "roses" hoping that eventually, everyone will believe it is roses?

Opinions are not evidence of proof, right Puddin'?

I disagree with your opinion based on my 46+ years of experience in multiple games at multiple levels. I have always made the call first, even in 1966 when I was doing baseball & have never had a problem. As I've said before, response of the teams is usually that of appreciation of at least checking. And that was probably quite a bit before ASA decided to take that stance, so this isn't a following the leader thing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

OK, my mistake, all ignore my earlier comments on this aspect.

Watch out, next thing you know someone will be calling you a clone!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Watch out, next thing you know someone will be calling you a clone!

I hope so!

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I have always made the call first, even in 1966 when I was doing baseball & have never had a problem.

Interesting, since the approved mechanic in baseball (at least it was in the years I actively umpired the game, which was from 1997 until 2011) is to request help first if--and only if--you feel there is something you didn't see. For example, the throw is slightly off line causing the first baseman to make a long stretch, or the first baseman has to make a swipe tag. On routine plays where the first baseman should have been able to easily stay on the bag, there is no need to get help before making the call.

And because that's the case in baseball, PUs always look to provide help in those cases. Any umpire worth his/her salt will watch that play at first, even when he/she has other base running responsibilities, such as a runner rounding third. Yes, a touch of third is his/her first priority, but chances that the runner will hit third at the precise moment that the play takes place at first are slim. So he/she should be able to handle both requirements. And if he/she can't, that's just the nature of the two-man beast.

So I believe that's the primary reason why this comes up so often. Many umpires have worked both baseball and softball, and the mechanic for this particular situation is 180 out, at least in my experience after having attended many baseball clinics in the past.

[MD Longhorn]

Mechanics that might work on a 90 foot diamond are not always useful on a 60 foot diamond. When it takes 12-15 steps for a runner to get from one base to another, there's a greater likelihood that said runner will not be at or near a base when the action happens at first base. With 8-10 steps, coincidental action is far more likely.

As PU, YES, you want to see the play at first base if possible, but not to the detriment of seeing your primary responsibilities.

Also ... ASA and NFHS both train BU to make the call, and go for help WHEN REQUESTED. If you're the guy who makes no call, asks for help, and then makes a call --- you're the guy that caused the S-Storm in the OP when he did it correctly, and coaches are expecting incorrect mechanics because the coach saw you do it your way.

[xtremeump]

So Irish you say in the bottom of the 7the inning of a FP game 2 outs home team down by one run. R1 on 3B, BR hits to F6 and the BU in C position with a possible
Pulled foot or swipe tag. Make the call, croud goes crazy, the home team throws there gloves up and starts to celebrate !!!!! Now the 1B coach asks you to ask for help and all of your posts you say you should go for help at that time. PU says she pulled her foot, I have live ball R1 scores From 3B to tie the game and the alert BR/R2 runs all the way home to win the game. I am just asking you is this the way you teach with 46 years of experience ? This year I am close to 100 games and I had to ask once and we got the call right.

[MD Longhorn]

If you've umpired as much as you claim, surely you're aware that we are responsible for placing runners in the event a changed (or erroneous) call places one team or the other at a disadvantage. BR stays at first.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

I have live ball R1 scores From 3B to tie the game and the alert BR/R2 runs all the way home to win the game.

No way in hell would the BR be allowed to score in this situation.

[Andy]

I can see both sides of this issue.

When I was starting out, I was trained under EA, who at that time advocated asking first before making the call. It was also being trained that the PU should be ready to help on the pulled foot, swipe tag, etc., in addition to other responsibilities.

I've since come to realize that there are instances where the PU may not be able to help due to other priorities with lead runners. I now adhere to the training of make the best call you can with the information you have, then go for help if necessary or requested. By waiting, you can kill the play, confer with partner(s), and make the call. Most of the time, going for help immediately before making the call will work, but making the call, then going for help, will work every time.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

If you don't have any question about a call but the coach insists you go for help you can always got for help and quietly tell your partner you were 100% sure of the call and won't change it. This will appease the coach a little, while at the same time allow you and your partner to look like you are working together.

If the bolded part is true.....the advice that followed is the absolute wrong thing to do.

If you have no question about the call you simply quietly, calmly, confidently, tell the the coach that you saw all the elements of the play that you needed to see to make the call.

It's one of the reasons that proper timing is so important to not only getting calls correct but also 'selling' the fact that you did.

[MD Longhorn]

I think that some posters have posted good advice and correct rulings for long enough that when they post one can feel confident they are giving good advice.

And I think the opposite is true as well. I just hope the newbies and lurkers can tell the difference. The endless supply of completely and utterly incorrect advice from a couple of posters is becoming tiresome.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Also ... ASA and NFHS both train BU to make the call, and go for help WHEN REQUESTED.

Is that also what is taught on a wild pitch/passed ball with two strikes where the PU feels the batter checked his/her swing, and the uncaught third strike situation is in play? Does the PU not go for help until it is requested?

If so, that's another mechanic that is different in baseball. When that happens in baseball, the PU goes to his/her partner immediately for a checked swing ruling, even if the defense doesn't initially ask.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Is that also what is taught on a wild pitch/passed ball with two strikes where the PU feels the batter checked his/her swing, and the uncaught third strike situation is in play? Does the PU not go for help until it is requested?

If so, that's another mechanic that is different in baseball. When that happens in baseball, the PU goes to his/her partner immediately for a checked swing ruling, even if the defense doesn't initially ask.

There is no requirement that the PU wait to be asked to go for help on a checked swing. The PU can initiate a request on his/her own.

I have been taught and I teach that with a check swing not initially called a strike and U3K situation, go for help immediately, don't wait to be asked.