Softball--pitching circle

[Rita C]

R3, batter draws a walk and continues on to second without stopping. Pitcher is
in the circle.

a.) R3 leaves the base as pitcher's attention is diverted to BR and heads home.

b.) R3 leaves the base to run home and then pitcher makes a feint toward second.

c.) R3 leaves the base to run home after pitcher makes feint toward second.

Your call in each scenario? High School or LL answers.

Rita

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Rita C

R3, batter draws a walk and continues on to second without stopping. Pitcher is
in the circle.

a.) R3 leaves the base as pitcher's attention is diverted to BR and heads home.

Assuming you mean BR as R4 having already touched 1B, R3 is out.

b.) R3 leaves the base to run home and then pitcher makes a feint toward second.

R3 is out

c.) R3 leaves the base to run home after pitcher makes feint toward second.

Assuming you are referring to a throw as being feigned, the LBR is no longer in effect.

Your call in each scenario? High School or LL answers.

Rita

ASA & NFHS

[RKBUmp]

Dont know the LL rules, but in all other rule sets in a and b, dead ball, R3 out, BR returns to 1st base. In c, live ball.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by Rita C

R3, batter draws a walk and continues on to second without stopping. Pitcher is
in the circle. [...]

The Look Back rule is not in effect until the pitcher has possession of the ball in the circle (FED) (possession and control in ASA) and the BR has touched first base or been declared out. IF these two conditions are met, then you have as others have previously posted.

[Rita C]

Thank you all. Just wanted to confirm my understanding of the rule.

Rita

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Rita C

R3, batter draws a walk and continues on to second without stopping. Pitcher is
in the circle.

a.) R3 leaves the base as pitcher's attention is diverted to BR and heads home.

b.) R3 leaves the base to run home and then pitcher makes a feint toward second.

c.) R3 leaves the base to run home after pitcher makes feint toward second.

Your call in each scenario? High School or LL answers.

Rita

I don't see enough information in a to answer properly to be honest.

a) If the attention is diverted to the BR that would mean the BR has not yet touched 1st base, and in this case the LBR would not apply since the LBR does not apply until the BR touches first base. At that point the BR touches 1st base, then you have a runner. If R3 left after you have a runner going from 1st to second, while the pitcher has the ball in the circle then its dead ball, R3 out. If it happens while she is still a BR (hasn't touched first), there is nothing.

b) This is pretty clear cut. Dead ball, R3 is out since the pitcher has the ball in the circle and no play has been made.

c) Since the runner left after the feint was made to second, the runner is released and there is no call.

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

ok - a related mechanics question - In FP/MFP, after a play with runners on, when do you actually stop watching the ball, and and actually start watching the baserunner(s)?

It is pretty amazing the number of umps I work with who will actually be watching the runners, without ever watching the BALL. And they are usually the ones who are calling time out every time an infielder asks- even with runners off the bases! ....drives me nuts sometimes!


The proper answer, of course, is watch the ball, with glances at the runner, so you have a feel for what they are doing. Once I see that P going ALL the way in the circle with the ball, I then look at the runner - if they are still standing off base by the time I have turned my head - BANG! 41 to go.....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE

It is pretty amazing the number of umps I work with who will actually be watching the runners, without ever watching the BALL. And they are usually the ones who are calling time out every time an infielder asks- even with runners off the bases! ....drives me nuts sometimes!

Obviously, I have no problem granting time, runners on or off the base , but you are correct, they cannot effect a rule without being completely aware of all the elements and that includes the ball.

- BANG! 41 to go.....

And that (BANG) is one reason I believe the rule has to go.

[BretMan]

Something that might affect the answers here...

Though I've never worked Little League, I do seem to remember from past discussions that they have (or, had) a slightly different interpretation regarding the look back rule compared to other organizations.

Specifically, does LL have the same clause in their rule about the look back going into effect when the batter-runner reaches first base? I thought that their LBR went into effect immediately when the batter became a batter-runner, before they even get to first base.

[Crabby_Bob]

LLSB: 7.08 - Any runner is out when - (a)(1) [blah, blah, wah, wah, wah] Note 1: [...] When a runner is off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within the eight (8) foot radius circle, the runner must immediately attempt to advance to the next base or return to the base the runner is entitled. Note 2: If the pitcher has possession of the ball within the pitcher's circle, and is not making a play (a fake throw is considered a play), runners not in contact with their bases must immediately attempt to advance or return to the base. Penalty: The ball is dead. "No pitch" is declared, and the runner is out. Eight (8) foot radius circle must be properly marked.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

LLSB: 7.08 - Any runner is out when - (a)(1) [blah, blah, wah, wah, wah] Note 1: [...] When a runner is off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within the eight (8) foot radius circle, the runner must immediately attempt to advance to the next base or return to the base the runner is entitled. Note 2: If the pitcher has possession of the ball within the pitcher's circle, and is not making a play (a fake throw is considered a play), runners not in contact with their bases must immediately attempt to advance or return to the base. Penalty: The ball is dead. "No pitch" is declared, and the runner is out. Eight (8) foot radius circle must be properly marked.

So let me get this straight. In LL Softball, if a batter walks, and halfway up the baseline to first, she stops in her tracks to remove a leg guard or elbow pad, she could be rung up for an out??

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And that (BANG) is one reason I believe the rule has to go.

OR, "GOTCHA" umpires.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So let me get this straight. In LL Softball, if a batter walks, and halfway up the baseline to first, she stops in her tracks to remove a leg guard or elbow pad, she could be rung up for an out??

Not by me.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Not by me.

I wouldn't have done so, either, until I read what Crabby_Bob quoted. There is nothing in the LL rule that says the LBR doesn't start until the BR reaches first base. This has got to be an oversight that LL HQ needs to fix.

[xtremeump]

the runner must immediately attempt to advance to the next base or return to the base the runner is entitled.

INMO the BR does not become R untill she touches 1B ? When I atteneded LL International Umpire School at Williamsport the instruction for Softball was very limited. All of the instructors were Baseball Clinicians.