Softball--pitching circle

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

INMO the BR does not become R untill she touches 1B ?

True for ASA. But not by the definition of Batter-Runner in the LL rule book:

"BATTER-RUNNER is a term that identifies the offensive player who has just finished a time at bat until that player is retired or until the play on which that player becomes a runner ends."

NFHS's definition of Batter-Runner is similar to the LL definition.

[vcblue]

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE

The proper answer, of course, is watch the ball, with glances at the runner, so you have a feel for what they are doing. Once I see that P going ALL the way in the circle with the ball, I then look at the runner - if they are still standing off base by the time I have turned my head - BANG! 41 to go.....

Really??? In 2013 we still have umpires that think it is their job to get outs instead of getting it right? The way you describe your mechanic is just wrong!

Also, why should a runner that just drove back to the bag not be granted time. I bet you have no problem giving time to a catcher when the pitcher gets wild or to call time after a runner is standing on the base (let's say 2nd) and wants to take off and give her arm protector to her coach.

I'll answer my own question. "Because in 2013 we still have umpires who think it is their job to get outs."

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by vcblue

Really??? In 2013 we still have umpires that think it is their job to get outs instead of getting it right? The way you describe your mechanic is just wrong!

Also, why should a runner that just drove back to the bag not be granted time. I bet you have no problem giving time to a catcher when the pitcher gets wild or to call time after a runner is standing on the base (let's say 2nd) and wants to take off and give her arm protector to her coach.

I'll answer my own question. "Because in 2013 we still have umpires who think it is their job to get outs."

Please tell us the right way to interpret 8-7-T, and the proper mechanics for the PU & BU ?
Strikes & Outs baby. Google Oswald Tower if you want to get deep into the philosophy of Officiating.

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by Manny A

True for ASA. But not by the definition of Batter-Runner in the LL rule book:

"BATTER-RUNNER is a term that identifies the offensive player who has just finished a time at bat until that player is retired or until the play on which that player becomes a runner ends."

NFHS's definition of Batter-Runner is similar to the LL definition.

Thanks, we do not have any LL Softball here.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So let me get this straight. In LL Softball, if a batter walks, and halfway up the baseline to first, she stops in her tracks to remove a leg guard or elbow pad, she could be rung up for an out??

No.. becuase that batter who just walked is not yet a runner, she is still a batter-runner. However it looks like in LLSB another runner who left base and stopped between bases while F1 has ball in circle would be called out whereas in NFHS and ASA they are not subject to the lookback rule until the batter-runner reaches 1B. Weird.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE

ok - a related mechanics question - In FP/MFP, after a play with runners on, when do you actually stop watching the ball, and and actually start watching the baserunner(s)?

It is pretty amazing the number of umps I work with who will actually be watching the runners, without ever watching the BALL. And they are usually the ones who are calling time out every time an infielder asks- even with runners off the bases! ....drives me nuts sometimes!


The proper answer, of course, is watch the ball, with glances at the runner, so you have a feel for what they are doing. Once I see that P going ALL the way in the circle with the ball, I then look at the runner - if they are still standing off base by the time I have turned my head - BANG! 41 to go.....

I'm not looking for a cheap out. And I am not going to guess an out. If she is still off base when I first see her she gets her chance to immediately move. After that then yes she is out.

Of course some times you have no choice but to call a cheap out. Twice this season in JV games I had a runner who had safely advanced from 1B to 2B for no discernible reason leave 2B and headed back to 1B while the ball was held by F1 in the circle. In one case I heard the girl tell her coach "I thought it was a foul ball" but she must have been the only one in the park who thought so.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I wouldn't have done so, either, until I read what Crabby_Bob quoted. There is nothing in the LL rule that says the LBR doesn't start until the BR reaches first base. This has got to be an oversight that LL HQ needs to fix.

Until a few years ago, ASA did not have anything stating the LBR went into effect until the BR was retired or became a runner

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I wouldn't have done so, either, until I read what Crabby_Bob quoted. There is nothing in the LL rule that says the LBR doesn't start until the BR reaches first base. This has got to be an oversight that LL HQ needs to fix.

I assume you are all aware that the "reaching 1st" is a recent change.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

Please tell us the right way to interpret 8-7-T, and the proper mechanics for the PU & BU ?
Strikes & Outs baby. Google Oswald Tower if you want to get deep into the philosophy of Officiating.

Warning - Long post

Not a fan because it is geared toward the game of basketball which, IMO is a game where the rules are more often inconsistently applied than any other field/court game of which I am aware.

In softball, we basically refer to it as not going looking for boogers. If you see it, call it, but you should never go out there "looking" for the violation. If you want to "find" a violation in any sport, you probably can at will and that isn't supposed to be what the game is about.

However, I am mostly not a fan because of the contradiction. First you are told to make the call when you see a rules violation and then not make the call if it violation did not apply to the intent and spirit of the rule. And that is where I have a problem.

To start, unless you were in the room during the discussion, you really don't know the intent or spirit in which the rule was enacted. You can have varying opinions as to how and why and the purpose which brought the rule about, but that is the problem.

When passing along information, people have a tendency to apply their own little touch, an embellishment they believe to help others to understand. Problem is that just because you think it will help doesn't mean the person hearing it will take it in that manner. I don't think there is anyone who teaches that doesn't do this to some level, even to the point of changing the point of emphasis in an explanation depending upon to whom you are speaking.

I deal in documents involving people from 31 states & DC. I give specific directions which ask for a, b or c. Often I get 1, 2 or 3 simply because, in spite of what was typed, the respondents answered base on what they thought I meant. This has become commonplace in this country and is routinely evident on this and other boards. Well, if we cannot get people to get it straight when they have time to sit and think about it, what it going to happen when they have less than a half-second?

The "intent and spirit" of rules in general is to keep a level playing field. For someone to not call a rule because "they" did not believe it fell into this category usually makes the game "fair" for one team, not the other and that in itself is not fair.

But the biggest problem I have is that it is a readily available excuse for the weak umpire to not apply rules THEY for which they do not care or the pressure making a call may bring.

And before you all go off half-cocked, I am quite aware that some rules are in the book as a tool to address extreme or rare circumstances and are not meant to be a full-time collar on the players or a game. I am also aware of that some rules were geared more toward one game or level than another. That doesn't mean you ignore them, but may temper the application.

There are many people who take the "invisible official" way too far. Some umpire believe that means to just sit back until there is an egregious violation and then step up and try to smooth it out.

In today's world, if you have a sporting event where the official on the field or court is not noticed, it is possible something just isn't right. In softball, there are still way too many people who believe in the "if you an cheatin', you ain't tryin' " adage. It is usually when the team isn't getting away with the cheating that the official becomes visible, and rightfully so, that is his/her job.

The level of rules knowledge and skill of the participants doesn't help, either. We have all seen it. They do something stupid, or is a clear violation and it is the official's fault. How many times have the youth umpire heard, "let the girls play"? Of course, it is only when the violation was on their team, not the opponent. And I don't think I need to bring up the NCAA IP saga. You want the official to have no bearing on the game, have the participants learn and play the game by the rules THEY accepted. And when they make a mistake and it is a violation, get over it and move on. As a player, I was grateful to have an umpire who made the correct call without a team having to go beg for it. Not everything is an appeal.

IOW, I believe you are there to officiate the game by the rules that are meant to be applied routinely and apply those meant for game management or safety when necessary. No need to be loud or boisterous or put on some type of show to demonstrate what is happening. If the coach needs an explanation, you get together with the coach and explain it to him or her. Don't scream at them or dismiss them, they have a job to do, also. An official is part of the game, like it or not, and needs to be visible on the field, but not part of the show.

If you need to find out the difference, that information is usually available through an official source and that can be anything from an official web site to a UIC, assuming the UIC has done his/her job and stayed abreast of the rule changes and clarifications. Apparently, some cannot be bothered with the clinics and schools available and unfortunately, pass along bad information. An umpire serious about the craft will find a way to get the correct answer.

JMHO

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

We have all seen it. They do something stupid, or is a clear violation and it is the official's fault.

Exactly. In my example of the girl who walked off 2B retreating to 1B because she thought it had been a foul ball.. she is certainly not gaining an advantage but it is an obvious violation of the rule. So am I the bad guy for making the call? Should I ignore this violation because she was going back not forward? Should I cut her some slack becuase she is a young player and doesn't know better?

[xtremeump]

IRISH +1 (Wow) very nice.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Exactly. In my example of the girl who walked off 2B retreating to 1B because she thought it had been a foul ball.. she is certainly not gaining an advantage but it is an obvious violation of the rule. So am I the bad guy for making the call? Should I ignore this violation because she was going back not forward? Should I cut her some slack becuase she is a young player and doesn't know better?

My opinion.

Low level and very young rec ball (10U, maybe 12U); ok. Anything above that, make the call.

We (well most of us, I assume) have had children. It doesn't matter how many times you tell them something, until there is a consequence, you are likely wasting your breath.

Let them learn; only the consequence will sink in and make it a lesson.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

My opinion.

Low level and very young rec ball (10U, maybe 12U); ok. Anything above that, make the call.

We (well most of us, I assume) have had children. It doesn't matter how many times you tell them something, until there is a consequence, you are likely wasting your breath.

Let them learn; only the consequence will sink in and make it a lesson.

It is funny that when an umpire does make the obvious, but not popular call it is the "let the kids play" or "way to make yourself part of the game", etc. But don't call the IP and how are the girls going to learn? Then it is the umpire's fault for not calling it until you do on their pitcher. Then it is back to the same old whine.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Exactly. In my example of the girl who walked off 2B retreating to 1B because she thought it had been a foul ball.. she is certainly not gaining an advantage but it is an obvious violation of the rule. So am I the bad guy for making the call? Should I ignore this violation because she was going back not forward? Should I cut her some slack becuase she is a young player and doesn't know better?

No, you make the call because once you don't, people will take that as the way it is and when the next guy does make the proper call, s/he takes the heat for you being a nice guy.

IMO, it is the umpire's job to enforce the rules and the coaches' job to teach the players the game. If both are competent in their respective responsibilities, there shouldn't be a problem.

If you don't want the umpires to do the job for which they are being paid, don't hire umpires. Asking the umpire to do otherwise is not fair to the umpire or the teams. Its like giving a soldier a gun to defend someone/thing, but no ammunition or a firefighter a hose to extinguish a forest fire, but no water.

[tcannizzo]

Last weekend, in a tournament that was made of teams going to 12A Nationals, I had at least 6 different pitchers who were not pausing at all after bringing their hands together.

Most of them did a nice job in making the adjustment after the first violation.

This one P from a TN team, did not. 6 IP's in a row.

Coach uses all the standard excuses, no one has ever called it before, that is the way she was taught to pitch, blah, blah, blah.

Also, this same team's F3 committed OBS on multiple occasions on pick off attempts.

At one point, while it was still relatively civil, I asked the coach to give me a list of the rules he would like us to ignore.

It did not end well, we had an ejection post-game.