Appeasment Does not work

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by outathm

The conversation was quiet, on my end. It was not across the field, as I never do that except in a Pulled foot type of situation.

I also did the hand over the mouth thing. The coach was not close, my partner told him, "Sorry, I couldn't see a tag", after he told me.

I went for help because, at this point, I was done with this tournament. The number of things that were wrong with this tournament on the Umpire end would take ten threads.

I can promise everyone on this board, and those that are here that have worked with me will concur, I do not go for help just to ask, I will NEVER do this again.

FWIW, it is very important to ask the question the right way, since by going to your partner you are "admitting that you might have gotten it wrong" (I know you weren't, but that's what everyone is seeing).

I think the better way to handle the conversation with your partner would be to say, "I saw a tag, did you see her MISS the tag"?

That way instead of him saying " 'I couldn't see a tag," (which was all the coach wanted to hear - he never payed attention to "the runner was in the way" " your partner's answer would have to be "I didn't see her miss the tag".

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

FWIW, it is very important to ask the question the right way, since by going to your partner you are "admitting that you might have gotten it wrong" (I know you weren't, but that's what everyone is seeing).

I think the better way to handle the conversation with your partner would be to say, "I saw a tag, did you see her MISS the tag"?

That way instead of him saying " 'I couldn't see a tag," (which was all the coach wanted to hear - he never payed attention to "the runner was in the way" " your partner's answer would have to be "I didn't see her miss the tag".

Agree, as specific as possible.
"Did you see (the opposite of the call)?";
maybe even with a reminder to your partner about quietness.

[outathm]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

FWIW, it is very important to ask the question the right way, since by going to your partner you are "admitting that you might have gotten it wrong" (I know you weren't, but that's what everyone is seeing).

I think the better way to handle the conversation with your partner would be to say, "I saw a tag, did you see her MISS the tag"?

That way instead of him saying " 'I couldn't see a tag," (which was all the coach wanted to hear - he never payed attention to "the runner was in the way" " your partner's answer would have to be "I didn't see her miss the tag".

Or, the best way to handle it is to stand my ground, and not go to my partner on a play that I needed no help.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by outathm

or, the best way to handle it is to stand my ground, and not go to my partner on a play that i needed no help.

+1

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by outathm

Or, the best way to handle it is to stand my ground, and not go to my partner on a play that I needed no help.

I certainly don't disagree with that, I was just offering the advice should one decide to go to their partner for any reason.

[tcannizzo]

Agree with "standing ground because had all elements of play".
Game Management: So as not to appear to being an egotistical butt, I have said, "Coach, there are certain things I can go for help on, and certain things that I can't. This one is one that I can't".

[EsqUmp]

Not seeing a tag is different than seeing that there wasn't a tag.

Let's say your partner actually said, "I saw that there was no tag." However, you saw that there was a tag, hence your hesitation in "going for help" in the first place.

So now we have one "tag" and one "no tag." That's still not good enough to overturn a call. Now what do you do? You're going to keep the call the same because there isn't enough evidence to overturn it. Now your partner (if it were me) is going to be pissed because you're not doing anything with what I told you.

Softball has made a joke of coaches coming onto the field or across the field to argue. The problem is exacerbated by the "be my friend umpire" who tells the coaches in the pre-game conference, "If you have a question about a call, wait for all play to end, ask for time and go to the umpire who made the call." Imagine saying that in a basketball game or football game. You'd be laughed out of town.

[shagpal]

"OK coach, I'll ask the other umpire if I also get to ask the opposing coach sitting in the dugout what he thinks."

[outathm]

Originally Posted by shagpal

"OK coach, I'll ask the other umpire if I also get to ask the opposing coach sitting in the dugout what he thinks."

I really was too close to saying something exactly like this. At this point in the tournament I was way beyond done, and ready to just leave.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Not seeing a tag is different than seeing that there wasn't a tag.

Let's say your partner actually said, "I saw that there was no tag." However, you saw that there was a tag, hence your hesitation in "going for help" in the first place.

So now we have one "tag" and one "no tag." That's still not good enough to overturn a call. Now what do you do? You're going to keep the call the same because there isn't enough evidence to overturn it. Now your partner (if it were me) is going to be pissed because you're not doing anything with what I told you.

Softball has made a joke of coaches coming onto the field or across the field to argue. The problem is exacerbated by the "be my friend umpire" who tells the coaches in the pre-game conference, "If you have a question about a call, wait for all play to end, ask for time and go to the umpire who made the call." Imagine saying that in a basketball game or football game. You'd be laughed out of town.

Then we are back to the same old thing. You should not be going to your partner if you are sure of your call.

If you ask me what I saw I will tell you what I saw.
If I am not sure (angle, watching other action, blocked view), I will let you know, and I hope you would tell the coach "The out stands - He couldn't help" or "he was blocked" or something like that.

But if I saw a miss (in this case) and tell you and then you stuck with the out call, you have just thrown ME under the proverbial bus.

In my original post, I was suggesting you alter the wording to get a more specific answer.

Of course all this is just repeating the part about, "if you have all the information you don't go for help". If you have any doubt, go for help, expect an honest answer and go with that answer,

[Andy]

When a coach asks me to go for help on a call, I will ask him/her why they are asking. If the response is "the fielder bobbled the ball" or "she pulled her foot off the base" or something similar that I did not see, I have no problem going to my partner.

If the response to my question is "I think they had a better angle" or "I want you to see what they had" the answer is no. My response is "Coach, it's my call, I saw everything I needed to see, the fact that you don't like or agree with my call is not a valid reason for me to go for help, we're playing ball now."

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

When a coach asks me to go for help on a call, I will ask him/her why they are asking. If the response is "the fielder bobbled the ball" or "she pulled her foot off the base" or something similar that I did not see, I have no problem going to my partner.

If the response to my question is "I think they had a better angle" or "I want you to see what they had" the answer is no. My response is "Coach, it's my call, I saw everything I needed to see, the fact that you don't like or agree with my call is not a valid reason for me to go for help, we're playing ball now."

What they don't seem to understand on the "I think they had a better angle" nonsense is that if we have two umpires who saw the same event differently - the umpire who the call belongs to by default has the better angle and position - so you would defer to that umpire anyway... and since that's the guy who made the initial call, there's never reason to get help on "I think they had a better angle".

[AtlUmpSteve]

One of my favorite responses is "So, do you think the other umpire can have me unsee what I saw? Because, as long as I saw it, my call takes the priority!! Coach, I assure you if there was any doubt in my mind, anything that person can add that I didn't see, I would gladly give you the consideration. But, since there is nothing there that person can subtract from what I have already seen, we need to move on."

[Andy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What they don't seem to understand on the "I think they had a better angle" nonsense is that if we have two umpires who saw the same event differently - the umpire who the call belongs to by default has the better angle and position - so you would defer to that umpire anyway... and since that's the guy who made the initial call, there's never reason to get help on "I think they had a better angle".

Story from this past weekend....

ASA tournament, I am BU. R1 on second, 1 out.
Batter hits a blooper near second base, no fielder can get to it before it lands, I'm anticipating a play to first when R1 decides to take off for third. I have taken a step in toward the infield when F4 retrieves the ball and throws to third. I move parallel with the base line, don't have the perfect angle, but see that the runner slides in to third before the tag, I look to see my PU partner coming up the line, hesitate to see if she has a call, then call the runner safe as PU looks at me and says...oops, your call. Defensive coach now requests time and comes to talk to me. Here is the conversation:

Coach: Can you check with your partner to see if she had a different angle?
Me: I know she had a different angle, coach.
Coach: I want you to ask her if she had a different angle.
Me: I don't need to ask her, coach. I know that she had a different angle.

He then has this deer in the headlights look and walks back to his dugout.

It is later reported to me by the TD (who is also our state commissioner) that I told the coach that I was out of position, but refused to go for help.....