Runner must slide rule

[chapmaja]

Ok, I had this discussion with a coach on Monday (away game), and Thursday (home game).

On Monday I had the following play. R1 has scored, R2 is coming home. F2, sees the throw is up the 3b line, and as such she steps into the path of R2, who stops right in front of F2 about 1 foot in front of the plate. She does not slide and attempts to reach her leg between the leg of F2. I call obstruction on F2 because she did not have the ball and impeded the progress of the runner coming home. There was some contacted between the two players when F2 tried reaching for the throw and R2 was reaching for the plate. The throw got by F2, which allowed B3 to advance from 2b to 3b.

The coach, after the inning finished, question why I called obstruction on F2, not interference on R2 because R2 did not slide. I informed her that no runner is ever required to slide, they just must avoid making significant contact with a fielder in possession of the ball attempting a play on the runner. I also said that in this case, the catcher committed inference because she was impeding the progress of R2, while not in possession of the ball.

The coach then told me that they have always been told that a runner must slide.

Later in the game, last play actually, I had a situation where B1 hit a double and was attempting to stretch the play to a triple. She came running towards 3b, and just after the throw arrived, slide late and as she went down sliding made significant contact with F5 who was coming towards her with the ball. Given we had 2 injured in a tag play at the play earlier in the game (nothing illegal, just two players attempting to occupy on place), I jumped the gun and called the runner out for making significant contact with the fielder, which caused the ball to bounce out of the glove and away from F5. I did not rule the contact malicious, it was just had contact as a result of a late, but not illegal slide.

After the game I looked the rule up and found I was wrong in calling her out. She did not slide illegally, and despite being sigificant contact during her late slide, she was not sliding illegally.

On Thursday, I admitted that I missed that call and the discussion again went to the slide rule. I pointed out to the coach the exact rule that covers sliding and it not being required (same rule I incorrectly applied in the play at the end of the game).

Where the heck did the you have to slide rule come from? She is not the only coach to say umpires have been telling her that. This was a HS JV game in an area that usually sees a mix of experienced and newer umpires. Does this go back to an old rule that required players to slide to avoid contact (which could actually lead to more injuries rather than less)?

[HugoTafurst]

If I remember correctly, Little League, Inc. has a rule that states that a runner must slide or attempt to a avoid a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make a tag.

People often refer to this as "must slide". (right or wrong)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

If I remember correctly, Little League, Inc. has a rule that states that a runner must slide or attempt to a avoid a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make a tag.

People often refer to this as "must slide". (right or wrong)

All rules require avoidance of collisions, but LL does or at least did have a "must slide" rule. Of course, that is where many coaches started there "diamond" careers.
The other part is that coaches teach players to slide to avoid tags & collisions; so then players think they must slide and that translates into a rule in their minds.
It's like the turn after overrunning 1st base. Players are taught to turn right to "avoid being out", that becomes a rule in their minds.
And others, usually actually believed as rules by the coaches who have never been umpires.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

After the game I looked the rule up and found I was wrong in calling her out. She did not slide illegally, and despite being sigificant contact during her late slide, she was not sliding illegally.

Define "sliding late". Simply leaving one's feet does not constitute a slide. IMO, even the NFHS definition is not specific enough.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

All rules require avoidance of collisions, but LL does or at least did have a "must slide" rule. Of course, that is where many coaches started there "diamond" careers.
The other part is that coaches teach players to slide to avoid tags & collisions; so then players think they must slide and that translates into a rule in their minds.
It's like the turn after overrunning 1st base. Players are taught to turn right to "avoid being out", that becomes a rule in their minds.
And others, usually actually believed as rules by the coaches who have never been umpires.

The last LL rules that I had seen specifically prohibits leagues from making a must slide rule. Last book I saw was 08. One of the few points I agreed on with LL.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

The last LL rules that I had seen specifically prohibits leagues from making a must slide rule. Last book I saw was 08. One of the few points I agreed on with LL.

Think about it. How can LL prohibit anyone from enacting a rule locally? Not saying there should be such a rule, but what are they going to do? Yes, that is a question.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Think about it. How can LL prohibit anyone from enacting a rule locally? Not saying there should be such a rule, but what are they going to do? Yes, that is a question.

They could prohibit it if they think that there is a safety/liability issue that could become an insurance coverage problem. Simple as that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

They could prohibit it if they think that there is a safety/liability issue that could become an insurance coverage problem. Simple as that.

Doesn't answer the question The only possible thing I can imagine would be for LL to pull their sanction, which to many LL associations isn't that big a deal as there are plenty of other organizations willing to fill that void.

That is like saying the NFHS can prohibit a state association from doing something. They cannot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Doesn't answer the question The only possible thing I can imagine would be for LL to pull their sanction, which to many LL associations isn't that big a deal as there are plenty of other organizations willing to fill that void.

That is like saying the NFHS can prohibit a state association from doing something. They cannot.

No, they can't, but they can withhold a seat on the rule committee: which they do.

Which is why you still see states using a shot clock. The sanction isn't enough to prevent undesired behavior.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

.

That is like saying the NFHS can prohibit a state association from doing something. They cannot.

There is a difference, the regional/world championship conducted by LL, with no analogous activity in NFHS.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

The last LL rules that I had seen specifically prohibits leagues from making a must slide rule. Last book I saw was 08. One of the few points I agreed on with LL.

Yeah, my LL experience is a long time ago, with my son who is now coaching is son and daughter.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Adam

No, they can't, but they can withhold a seat on the rule committee: which they do.

Which is why you still see states using a shot clock. The sanction isn't enough to prevent undesired behavior.

BFD
PIAA, for exampe, uses ed rules but has their own adoptions.
Unless your state scholastic organization is looking to have somebody on the rules committee, I do not see that aas a cause for concern.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

All rules require avoidance of collisions, but LL does or at least did have a "must slide" rule. Of course, that is where many coaches started there "diamond" careers.
The other part is that coaches teach players to slide to avoid tags & collisions; so then players think they must slide and that translates into a rule in their minds.
It's like the turn after overrunning 1st base. Players are taught to turn right to "avoid being out", that becomes a rule in their minds.
And others, usually actually believed as rules by the coaches who have never been umpires.

Not for the last 15 years, at least.

Rita

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

There is a difference, the regional/world championship conducted by LL, with no analogous activity in NFHS.

Okay, then lets refer to ASA, USSSA, NSA, ISA, ISSA, WSL, USFA, etc.

Originally Posted by Adam

No, they can't, but they can withhold a seat on the rule committee: which they do.

Just how big a rule committee do they have and just how many locals really have any input at that level?

Which is why you still see states using a shot clock. The sanction isn't enough to prevent undesired behavior.

Huh? LL uses a shot clock?

Apparently there are enough local youth baseball associations looking for something different that ASA has been developing ASA Baseball and are prepared to publish their own rule book. Personally, I think it is ludicrous, but then again, it has become less about the game.

[falsecut]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

All rules require avoidance of collisions, but LL does or at least did have a "must slide" rule. Of course, that is where many coaches started there "diamond" careers.
The other part is that coaches teach players to slide to avoid tags & collisions; so then players think they must slide and that translates into a rule in their minds.
It's like the turn after overrunning 1st base. Players are taught to turn right to "avoid being out", that becomes a rule in their minds.
And others, usually actually believed as rules by the coaches who have never been umpires.

I've seen lots of tournaments and in-house leagues that have a must slide rule. I don't think it's hard to see where the idea comes from at all.