Obstruction question

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I think most agree with you. Assuming no other action anywhere else, if a runner is just laying there and the knucklehead fielder is just sitting there with the tag in place - kill it.

But when you have a team that is coached to ask for time every time they slide safely even when the fielder's doing nothing - don't kill it.

Yes completely agree

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Andy

(snip)

I've not tried Hugo's suggestion of "Let's play ball"...I may give that a try and see how it works.

Sometimes when the fielder holds the tag on a runner after I have already called her "SAFE", I'll wait a few beats, then say, "She's still safe"... again, message usually received.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Color me something other than shocked.

Not our first conversation on the topic; but we both know that, until the rules and philosophy behind the rules change, we are expected to do it that way (keep the ball live). And we will likely discuss again (any time we are in the same area that sells beer!!).

Our opinions aside, honor the game, not what you think the game should be.

No argument from me, nor the suggestion that we shouldn't, just pointing out the cause of such............what IMO are misconceptions

[IRISHMAFIA]

Question: What do you accomplish by not granting the suspension of play?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA
Look at the two rules before the LBR (8.7.R & S).

Now, define "leave". If you were speaking of an area or space, I would agree, but the "base" is a defined object. If the foot, hand, ponytail, whatever, looses contact, it left the base.

I'm not suggesting we start calling people out merely for shifting weight, moving feet, etc., but.....

Citations please.

[Sorry for the delay, I've been off the grid]

Citations are to 8.7S and T so I'm not sure what you're asking for in the way of citation.
87S reads in relevant part: When the runner fails to keep contact with the base
87T reads in relevant part: the runner will be declared out if leaving the base.

You have two choices in reading those in my mind.
Either a) you believe they mean the same thing (as you described above) or b) you believe they believe there is a significance to the different wording.

If you hold a as you seem to above, then I'm not sure how you're not "suggesting we start calling people out merely for shifting weight, moving feet, etc., but....." other than suggesting we ignore or don't see what's going on.
If you hold to b, then you don't need to ignore or not see it.

Given that I don't find your definition of leave meaning to maintain contact particularly persuasive, I don't see why I'd want to hold with A. Leaving the base isn't defined in the rule book and there's a natural interpretation that conforms to how the game is generally called

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

[Sorry for the delay, I've been off the grid]

Citations are to 8.7S and T so I'm not sure what you're asking for in the way of citation.
87S reads in relevant part: When the runner fails to keep contact with the base
87T reads in relevant part: the runner will be declared out if leaving the base.

You have two choices in reading those in my mind.
Either a) you believe they mean the same thing (as you described above) or b) you believe they believe there is a significance to the different wording.

If you hold a as you seem to above, then I'm not sure how you're not "suggesting we start calling people out merely for shifting weight, moving feet, etc., but....." other than suggesting we ignore or don't see what's going on.
If you hold to b, then you don't need to ignore or not see it.

Given that I don't find your definition of leave meaning to maintain contact particularly persuasive, I don't see why I'd want to hold with A. Leaving the base isn't defined in the rule book and there's a natural interpretation that conforms to how the game is generally called

No, my citations were correct and exactly what I meant. I specifically referred to the rules PRIOR to the LBR. Both specifically state the runner is out in the respective game if they lose "contact". Don't need the LBR for that call, you introduced that.

My comments speak for themselves, don't see any reason to just repeat them.

[jmkupka]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The short answer is yes, although YOU should be the one calling time and awarding the base - that's what the timeout is for, and it shouldn't be called if the defense is still playing, even if she wants to "dust herself off".

There's a caveat to this one though, and I hope Irish chimes in here.

If she is obstructed and simply misses 2nd base, and the appeal is live, she's out. However if the REASON she misses 2nd base is the obstruction itself, then when she is put out on appeal - the award for the obstruction is the base she would have achieved absent the obstruction - meaning that absent the obstruction there wouldn't have been a miss of the base (presumably), in which case you do NOT rule her out.

I "get" this case but consistently explain it poorly, hence my desire for Irish to jump in.

I was hoping you were going to comment on this. I read closely, and I don't see a correction of running responsibilities after time is called in this situation. If that's true, is the bolded statement correct?
She was blocked from touching 2B on her way to 3B. Doesn't she have to do whatever's necessary to touch 2B, then rely on our judgement to properly award her?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, my citations were correct and exactly what I meant. I specifically referred to the rules PRIOR to the LBR. Both specifically state the runner is out in the respective game if they lose "contact". Don't need the LBR for that call, you introduced that.

My comments speak for themselves, don't see any reason to just repeat them.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying.
8-7-S says that the runner is out:
When the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which the
runner is entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand.

And 8-7-R says that the runner is out:
When the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which
they are entitled until a pitched ball is batted, touches the ground, or reaches home plate.

I've always read both of those rules as applying during the pitch. There's nothing in 8-7-S about when the rule comes into effect. (Or for that matter in 8-7-R). 87R would be in effect from the time the ball goes back into play after time is called after the play. 87S could be put into play at a similar time (once one umpire starts heading back to position?) But that seems like a strange timing thing given that it's not in the rules.
Wild pitch, runners at the corners, pitcher comes home and makes a close play. In the confusion, the runner from 1st decides to continue on to third. Nobody calls her out for violation 87S.
Worse still, runner on third base with a walk. Runner rounds first base and pitcher fakes to 1st or leaves the circle moving toward first. Runner at third takes a lead off for home while she's faking since the LBR is off. You immediately call her out for violation of 87S .

87S and 87T2 are not redundant in my reading of them. I don't think we should read rules to be utterly meaningless if we can help it and I think everyone calls the game consistent with the way I read those two rules.

87S means (though it doesn't say the part up to my comma) that once the pitcher gets ready to pitch, the runner must maintain contact with the base.
87T2 means that once the runner stops on a base while the other conditions are met, she may not leave --umpire's judgment of what it means to leave-- the base for any reason.

And if you don't read it that way don't you have this problem: Runner at 2nd with one foot off the base kicks the bag with the base foot to clean her cleats. DC calls time comes out and asks you if you saw her kick the base. Yeah. Did she lose contact with the base. Yeah. Why didn't you call her out? I protest.

[MD Longhorn]

umpire's judgment of what it means to leave

That's your answer. And that's why she's not out for kicking the dirt off her cleats.