Obstruction question

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I would leave her at second base. She was obstructed while heading there, and she made it. Her failing to tag up properly is an infraction that, at least in FED ball, provides her protection between the two bases where the obstruction occurred only if the obstruction happened as she was returning to her TOP base.

She made it because of the violation.

That said, I'm not sure there's even a need to announce an award, is there? If a runner is obstructed, but the obstruction doesn't affect the outcome of the play, are we still supposed to call time and announce anything?

Always announce a violation if it was in effect. If the award is where the runner is presently located, just note the runner stays there.

Couple reasons to do that. One is to let them know that you are watching and you know the rule. Another is to let the coaches know you have made a decision as to where the runner should be. If they don't agree, they will argue anyway, but you have indicated that you did see the violation and made an award, not that you are using it or ignoring it as an afterthought to protect yourself.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Always announce a violation if it was in effect. If the award is where the runner is presently located, just note the runner stays there.

Couple reasons to do that. One is to let them know that you are watching and you know the rule. Another is to let the coaches know you have made a decision as to where the runner should be. If they don't agree, they will argue anyway, but you have indicated that you did see the violation and made an award, not that you are using it or ignoring it as an afterthought to protect yourself.

Believe it or not, I used to do that. But I was recently told that if the play ends up not being affected by the Obstruction, there was no real need for me to make the announcement. I'm more than happy to go back to the way it was.

That said, is this the case under all codes? Or is it different in NCAA? Maybe I was told not to make any announcements at the college level.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny

I'm not sure that's appropriate.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Runners should always be allowed to complete their running responsibilities during a dead ball. An umpire should not accept any appeals or announce any awards until the runner receives an opportunity to complete them.

You should be sure now.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You should be sure now.

I stand corrected. I thought that only applied on base awards, not on routine misses or failures to tag up.

So, just to be clear in my mind: R1 on second leaves too soon on a tag-up, and beats the throw to third, sliding in safely. She requests and is granted Time to dust herself off. She overhears the defensive head coach in the third base dugout say that he saw her leave early. So she goes back to second, touches it, and then returns to third. That's completely legal.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I stand corrected. I thought that only applied on base awards, not on routine misses or failures to tag up.

So, just to be clear in my mind: R1 on second leaves too soon on a tag-up, and beats the throw to third, sliding in safely. She requests and is granted Time to dust herself off. She overhears the defensive head coach in the third base dugout say that he saw her leave early. So she goes back to second, touches it, and then returns to third. That's completely legal.

Apples and Space Shuttles. Of course not.

I thought that only applied on base awards - Yes, exactly... and when a player is given a base due to obstruction (even one achieved naturally), that is a ________________?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Apples and Space Shuttles. Of course not.

I thought that only applied on base awards - Yes, exactly... and when a player is given a base due to obstruction (even one achieved naturally), that is a ________________?

Okay, now I'm REALLY

Mine was a bad example. Suppose this happens: R1 at first goes to third base on a single, but she was obstructed near second base by a clueless F6. R1 missed touching second because of the obstruction, and rather than try to touch it (as is required), she just continues to third and slides in safely. She then requests Time to dust herself off, and she overhears the defensive coach say she missed the bag. She is allowed to fix that after Time has been granted?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Okay, now I'm REALLY

Mine was a bad example. Suppose this happens: R1 at first goes to third base on a single, but she was obstructed near second base by a clueless F6. R1 missed touching second because of the obstruction, and rather than try to touch it (as is required), she just continues to third and slides in safely. She then requests Time to dust herself off, and she overhears the defensive coach say she missed the bag. She is allowed to fix that after Time has been granted?

The short answer is yes, although YOU should be the one calling time and awarding the base - that's what the timeout is for, and it shouldn't be called if the defense is still playing, even if she wants to "dust herself off".

There's a caveat to this one though, and I hope Irish chimes in here.

If she is obstructed and simply misses 2nd base, and the appeal is live, she's out. However if the REASON she misses 2nd base is the obstruction itself, then when she is put out on appeal - the award for the obstruction is the base she would have achieved absent the obstruction - meaning that absent the obstruction there wouldn't have been a miss of the base (presumably), in which case you do NOT rule her out.

I "get" this case but consistently explain it poorly, hence my desire for Irish to jump in.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Okay, now I'm REALLY

I don't think you are confused after your clarification ... the important different in your sitch that was apples vs space shuttles is that there was no base award involved at all. She can't just call time quickly so she can correct an error. (If she did so, I'd let her ... and then would still rule her out on appeal).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Why does a player need, and why would you grant "time" for a player to dust herself off? Can't she do that while standing safely on the base?

Frankly, I see that as an unnecessary carry-over from baseball, which coddles the players by killing the ball at every unnecessary opportunity. OK, you just finished sliding into a base; so? There is no reason to grant time. Now, if the batter-runner was wearing protective equipment that she needs to remove and hand to a coach, fine; but not to dust off.

JMO, and it isn't granted in my games; at any level.

[IRISHMAFIA]

As I noted earlier, the runner should always be given the opportunity to complete their running assignment. If it was apparent that when you granted a suspension of play the runner had ample opportunity to correct any known running error, you accept and rule on the appeal.

When I was playing and a runner missed the plate, we would always wait until the player entered the dugout before making an appeal that way there was no way the umpire could allow the runner to return which we saw happen a few times.

I'm not suggesting an eternal clock for the runner. If you call "time" and the runner pops up and starts running to a base missed or left too soon, allow it. If the runner makes no move or isn't directed to return almost immediately, again, accept and rule on the appeal.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Frankly, I see that as an unnecessary carry-over from baseball, which coddles the players by killing the ball at every unnecessary opportunity.

Not in the baseball games I work.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Frankly, I see that as an unnecessary carry-over from baseball, which coddles the players by killing the ball at every unnecessary opportunity. OK, you just finished sliding into a base; so? There is no reason to grant time. Now, if the batter-runner was wearing protective equipment that she needs to remove and hand to a coach, fine; but not to dust off.

I think you are exaggerating this. The player isn't requesting time to dust off, but to be able to stand up without the defender holding a glove on them or pounding away with a tag in the hopes that some umpire will see contact for a split second where contact with the base may have been lost.

You can either grant the request for time when there is no further obvious action and move on with the game, or stand there and allow the cat and mouse game.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Why does a player need, and why would you grant "time" for a player to dust herself off? Can't she do that while standing safely on the base?

Frankly, I see that as an unnecessary carry-over from baseball, which coddles the players by killing the ball at every unnecessary opportunity. OK, you just finished sliding into a base; so? There is no reason to grant time. Now, if the batter-runner was wearing protective equipment that she needs to remove and hand to a coach, fine; but not to dust off.

JMO, and it isn't granted in my games; at any level.

...or why should she be granted time to be able to stand up (without losing contact with the base after sliding) for that matter?

Sounds like you and I agree on that philosophy. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who don't.

Most often I see this when the runner is on the ground with one hand on the bag and the other in the air requesting TIME as the fielder is holding the tag on her. I will usually just say, "Let's play ball" and they both get the message - fielder throws ball to pitcher, runner figures out how to stand up.

And you know what else... if the ball goes back to the cirle and the runner does momentarily lose contact with the base while she is getting up, I didn't see it.
(I know what other rules don't I enforce?)

[jmkupka]

Has anyone ever seen a runner, standing on a base past the one they missed or left too soon, leave that base and calmly trot back to touch the one left too soon when time was called?

I've ruled on a lot of dead-ball appeals, and never once has a runner or their coach taken advantage of that part of the rule.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

And you know what else... if the ball goes back to the cirle and the runner does momentarily lose contact with the base while she is getting up, I didn't see it.
(I know what other rules don't I enforce?)

There's nothing to ignore. The look back rule does not require the runner to maintain contact with the bag. It requires that the runner not leave the bag.

Only during the pitch is contact required. That's in the pitching rule section.