Umpire Blunder. What to do?

[varefump]

Actual situation that occured in a high school game this week.

One out, R2 on second. B4 with a count of 2-2, swings and misses. B4 remains at bat and fouls off the next pitch. Then B4 singles to the outfield scoring R2.

Defensive coach then comes out and asks the plate umpire why B4 was not out on strikes. Umps get together and rule that it was too late to appeal the mistake. They let the play stand.

Were the umpires correct?

My first thought is that B5 should have been the proper batter after B4 strikes out and therefore the defense could properly appeal batting out of order since a pitch has not been thrown since the improper batter (B4) has completed her turn at bat.

[Andy]

I agree with you...

B4 has batted out of order.

B4's strikeout was out #2
B5 is declared out for failing to pat in her proper position. Out #3

B4's single is nullified, run is taken off the board, inning is over.
B6 will lead off the next inning for this team

[Rich Ives]

B4 isn't out unless strike 3 is called.

It wasn't.

The UIC has the official count. No one else matters. You may be able to convince him he's wrong but if you can't - tough.

If they truly decided it should have been strike 3 it was umpire error, not the player's error. Don't punish the players.

And how could two teams and two sets of fans not notice and make a commotion?

And even so, if you want to get B4 for BOO then it's too late, the first pitch to the "improper" B4 legitimized it and B5 is now the proper batter. And he's up. Play on.

Denmark. Foul odor.

[MD Longhorn]

Coach should have appealed batting out of order, and not asked, "why wasn't B4 out". ASSUME B4 was out on the 3rd strike and appeal B4 batting when B5 should be up.

Granted, the result SHOULD have been the same, but approaching it differently is more likely to get the result... after all, if the umpires are clueless enough to let B4 keep batting without saying anything at all - they are clueless enough to make the ruling they did on your field.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

B4 isn't out unless strike 3 is called.

It wasn't.

The UIC has the official count. No one else matters. You may be able to convince him he's wrong but if you can't - tough.

If they truly decided it should have been strike 3 it was umpire error, not the player's error. Don't punish the players.

And how could two teams and two sets of fans not notice and make a commotion?

And even so, if you want to get B4 for BOO then it's too late, the first pitch to B5 legitimized it and B5 is now the proper batter. And he's up. Play on.

Denmark. Foul odor.

This is wrong about 10 times, but I just want to focus on one. There was no "first pitch to B5" There was a pitch to B4 that SHOULD HAVE been to B5 - it was B4 batting when B5 should have ... and when B4 hit it, she was, indeed, batting out of order.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

B4 isn't out unless strike 3 is called.

It wasn't.

The UIC has the official count. No one else matters. You may be able to convince him he's wrong but if you can't - tough.

If they truly decided it should have been strike 3 it was umpire error, not the player's error. Don't punish the players.

And how could two teams and two sets of fans not notice and make a commotion?

And even so, if you want to get B4 for BOO then it's too late, the first pitch to the "improper" B4 legitimized it and B5 is now the proper batter. And he's up. Play on.

Denmark. Foul odor.

And if this were a baseball board, some of that might be accurate. One more case where this isn't the same game played by girls.

1) There is no UIC in a softball game. There is a PU, and (usually) one or more BU's. They each have designated responsibilities, but neither is in a secondary or lesser position.

2) The official count is what can be established as being the correct count. Only if it cannot be established is the PU's count the default result.

3) B4 is out when strike 3 happens; that is a rule. No matter how many people overlook or mistake it, it is an out.

4) All teams, coaches and players, are responsible to know the game situation. Slipping it past a mistaken umpire, who lost the count for a moment, isn't a free pass. It isn't punishing the players by enforcing the rules; it is the rule to enforce the rules.

5) Continuing to bat after being out is a player error; one condoned (by failing to correct) by the offensive coaches. They get what they get.

6) When B4 bats twice, the second at-bat isn't legitimized until a pitch to a SUCCEEDING batter. That didn't happen. First at-bat was legal; result was an out. Second at-bat is BOO; appealed before a next pitch, B5 is now out, and B6 is the next batter. Andy's answer is spot-on; in every softball rule set.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by varefump

Actual situation that occured in a high school game this week.

One out, R2 on second. B4 with a count of 2-2, swings and misses. B4 remains at bat and fouls off the next pitch. Then B4 singles to the outfield scoring R2.

Defensive coach then comes out and asks the plate umpire why B4 was not out on strikes. Umps get together and rule that it was too late to appeal the mistake. They let the play stand.

Were the umpires correct?

My first thought is that B5 should have been the proper batter after B4 strikes out and therefore the defense could properly appeal batting out of order since a pitch has not been thrown since the improper batter (B4) has completed her turn at bat.

Correctable error. Put R1 back on 2nd, 2 outs, B5 is in the box.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Correctable error. Put R1 back on 2nd, 2 outs, B5 is in the box.

My first thought was opposing the "rule that it was too late to appeal the mistake" and immediately thought 'jeopardy rule", as well.
Why not BOO, rule cite for NFHS & ASA?

[EsqUmp]

A.R.15.3.5: The batter has a 3-1 count and although the next pitch is called a ball, no one acknowledges the base on balls. The next pitch
is a foul ball. 1) Before the next pitch, the offensive coach asks the plate umpire for the count and he acknowledges it is 4-2. Can the
umpire correct the count and award the batter first base even though a pitch has been thrown after the mistake? 2) Following the foul ball,
the next pitch is a called strike for strike three. The offensive coach immediately requests the plate umpire award the batter the base on
balls she had previously earned, thus negating the strike out. 3) On the next pitch, the batter hits an out-of-the-park home run and the
defensive coach immediately requests the plate umpire award the batter the base on balls she had previously earned, thus negating the
home run?
RULING: 1) Yes, as long as the batter has not completed her turn at bat, the umpire may correct the count. In this case, the batter would
be awarded first base because the rules say when a batter receives a fourth ball, she is awarded first base without liability to be put out.
Similarly, if a batter leaves the batter’s box headed for the dugout thinking she struck out (but has not) or heads to first base, thinking she
walked (but has not), the umpire shall direct her back to the batter’s box to complete her turn at bat. 2,3) In both cases, because the batter
completed her turn at bat, the window of opportunity to correct the count during her at bat no longer exists. The result of the play remains
the action from the last delivered pitch…strikeout in the first case and home run in the second. Note- 15.2.14 and 15.9.3 do not apply as
this is not a case of a delayed call or a reversed decision putting a player in undue jeopardy.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

A.R.15.3.5: The batter has a 3-1 count and although the next pitch is called a ball, no one acknowledges the base on balls. The next pitch
is a foul ball. 1) Before the next pitch, the offensive coach asks the plate umpire for the count and he acknowledges it is 4-2. Can the
umpire correct the count and award the batter first base even though a pitch has been thrown after the mistake? 2) Following the foul ball,
the next pitch is a called strike for strike three. The offensive coach immediately requests the plate umpire award the batter the base on
balls she had previously earned, thus negating the strike out. 3) On the next pitch, the batter hits an out-of-the-park home run and the
defensive coach immediately requests the plate umpire award the batter the base on balls she had previously earned, thus negating the
home run?
RULING: 1) Yes, as long as the batter has not completed her turn at bat, the umpire may correct the count. In this case, the batter would
be awarded first base because the rules say when a batter receives a fourth ball, she is awarded first base without liability to be put out.
Similarly, if a batter leaves the batter’s box headed for the dugout thinking she struck out (but has not) or heads to first base, thinking she
walked (but has not), the umpire shall direct her back to the batter’s box to complete her turn at bat. 2,3) In both cases, because the batter
completed her turn at bat, the window of opportunity to correct the count during her at bat no longer exists. The result of the play remains
the action from the last delivered pitch…strikeout in the first case and home run in the second. Note- 15.2.14 and 15.9.3 do not apply as
this is not a case of a delayed call or a reversed decision putting a player in undue jeopardy.

So, because "B4 singles to the outfield" completes her turn at bat, the result stands and the umpires in the OP were correct? In NCAA.

[UmpireErnie]

It should be stated that getting the strike three call correct is NOT an "appeal play" which is generally where the whole "before the next pitch" thing comes in.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Correctable error. Put R1 back on 2nd, 2 outs, B5 is in the box.

So your saying correct the error in the count (B4 is out) and that the pitches after strike three to B4 are all negated right? And BOO would not apply because we put the offense in jeopardy of BOO by blowing the count.

This was my initial thought, but I wanted to find back up in the book. The OP said "high school game" so I went to the NFHS book first.

10-2-3 (m) ad (n) seem to be enough to go with your ruling.
Is counting strike three as a second strike two a scorekeeping error as in (n)? But (m) seems to apply in any case. There is no verbiage here about "before the next pitch" in this section and it's not an appeal play.

But speaking ASA, their rule 10 does not specify the scorekeeping error and the "jeopardy rule" in 10-3-C is all I can find and that rule has it's own "before the next pitch" verbiage. It would seem if we continued with B4 batting and incorrectly called strike three as strkie two and another pitch is thrown that is WAS strike two even though it was the second strike two. It's too late to fix it under 10-3-C.

In neither book can I find the term "correctable error". While I hate to see the rule books grow I am thinking maybe there should be something on this.

Mike, I willing to be convinced to do it your way, in fact I already was convinced. But I can't find it in ASA. Am I missing something?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Mike, I willing to be convinced to do it your way, in fact I already was convinced. But I can't find it in ASA. Am I missing something?

What would you do as the UIC if a batter hit the ball to dead center for a what would be a clear base hit and the plate umpire screams "foul"?

I'll tell you what the answer is from members of the ASA NUS over the past 15 years or so. You place the batter on 1B and assume the defense would have cleanly fielded the base hit, move all runners one base.

Is it a compromise? Yep. Is someone going to be upset? Possibly, but not as much if you just stand there and say "oops, my bad". Not everything is or can be in the book, especially to accommodate the umpire's screw ups.

This batter was out. Umpire failed to enforce the rule and the batter stayed. If this were a BR who returned to bat again after being called out or something similar, maybe BOO then, but not when it is the umpire's error. Yes, the offense should have been aware of the count. And so should have the defense. AND so should the umpire. This is a total fail for everyone.

Again, regardless of the rule set, I'm sticking with my ruling.