Does the Run Count?

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Isn't the fourth out appeal strictly an ASA rule, and then, only on a runner who has scored? If so, then it renders this whole thread moot.

No. All sanctions of both baseball and softball that I'm aware of allow a fourth out appeal. The only difference is that ASA restricts them only to runners who have scored, while all the others allow them against any runner.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Isn't the fourth out appeal strictly an ASA rule

Absolutely not. 4th out is DIFFERENT in ASA, and is actually MORE useful in just about every other code (including smallball).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Absolutely not. 4th out is DIFFERENT in ASA, and is actually MORE useful in just about every other code (including smallball).

Well, I'm not a big fan, but I think ASA's interpretation is a bit more practical. I do not believe it is reasonable to expect a runner to continue playing once the 3rd out is called and that is where the previous version fell apart.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by BretMan

No. All sanctions of both baseball and softball that I'm aware of allow a fourth out appeal. The only difference is that ASA restricts them only to runners who have scored, while all the others allow them against any runner.

I stand corrected. Fuzzy morning after an active night!

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by Manny A

You need to read case play 9.1.1.D again, Ernie. It's pretty clear that when a runner misses a base she was forced to advance to, and the defense appeals, it is still a force out even if the force was removed when the BR (or trail runner being forced) is retired.

Manny you lost me here. In 9.1.1.D nobody missed a base. IMO the point being made in 9.1.1.D is that a runner touching home when they are awarded home is not a timing play in so far as scoring a run during a third out play is concerned.

The only way in NHFS casebook play 9.1.1.D where R1 from 3B does not score with bases loaded is if she does not touch HP and is properly appealed, even if another runner is put out for the third out prior to this runner from 3B completing her duties of touching HP.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Manny you lost me here. In 9.1.1.D nobody missed a base. ...

Not Case Play 9.1.1.Delta but rather 9.1.1.Oscar.

[UmpireErnie]

OK casebook play 9.1.1.O does seem to back that up although I would say it flies in the face of NFHS rule 2-24-2 which says that the force ends when the runner touches the next base (she didn't) or a following runner is put out (she was).

It all comes down to whether or not the force needs to be on at the time of the infraction (missing the base) or does the force still need to be on at the time the appeal is made. Although it's not in the rules, this casebook play seems to add to the rules by making this determination at the time of missing the base.

It's also then one of those things different in NFHS than ASA. ASA can't be more clear on this issue. Rules Supplement 21 on page 121 of this years book states: "On an appeal play, the force out is determined at the time the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred."

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

Not Case Play 9.1.1.Delta but rather 9.1.1.Oscar.

Sorry; I was victimized by TwoBits' reference to Delta without going back to check the case book.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Although it's not in the rules, this casebook play seems to add to the rules by making this determination at the time of missing the base.

That's what case plays are for, Ernie.

And it's not really adding to the rules. It's just clarifying what is meant under rule 2-1-11.