Game Management or not?

[Andy]

Situation presented to me from one of our local HS umpires:

Multiple runners on base, base hit to the outfield.
Ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle, BU starts moving to position, PU calls time and requests to talk to the BU.

PU's question to BU: Why didn't you call the look back violation on the batter-runner? That is your call.
BU: I didn't see that, I was watching the lead runner.
PU then proceeds to declare the B/R out on the look back violation.
As a result of this, the third base coach protested enough to be ejected.

1. Shouldn't the PU have just called the look back violation when he saw it?
2. What is your opinion on making that call, even though it may have been the right call, after that delay and conferring with the BU?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

Situation presented to me from one of our local HS umpires:

Multiple runners on base, base hit to the outfield.
Ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle, BU starts moving to position, PU calls time and requests to talk to the BU.

PU's question to BU: Why didn't you call the look back violation on the batter-runner? That is your call.
BU: I didn't see that, I was watching the lead runner.
PU then proceeds to declare the B/R out on the look back violation.
As a result of this, the third base coach protested enough to be ejected.

1. Shouldn't the PU have just called the look back violation when he saw it?
2. What is your opinion on making that call, even though it may have been the right call, after that delay and conferring with the BU?

1. Yes.
2. If you follow 1, you don't get to two. I'd rather call it and then discuss.
3. One umpire can easily watch all three runners staying on base. If you wait to move until they are bound and make good eye contact to indicate who is watching, someone will always have an eye on the runners.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by Andy

Situation presented to me from one of our local HS umpires:

Multiple runners on base, base hit to the outfield.
Ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle, BU starts moving to position, PU calls time and requests to talk to the BU.

PU's question to BU: Why didn't you call the look back violation on the batter-runner? That is your call.
BU: I didn't see that, I was watching the lead runner.
PU then proceeds to declare the B/R out on the look back violation.
As a result of this, the third base coach protested enough to be ejected.

1. Shouldn't the PU have just called the look back violation when he saw it?
2. What is your opinion on making that call, even though it may have been the right call, after that delay and conferring with the BU?

I know you are limited to what you are told.....but there is a whole lot more that needs to be known here to make a knowledgeable answer....

Joel

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

Situation presented to me from one of our local HS umpires:

Multiple runners on base, base hit to the outfield.
Ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle, BU starts moving to position, PU calls time and requests to talk to the BU.

PU's question to BU: Why didn't you call the look back violation on the batter-runner? That is your call.
BU: I didn't see that, I was watching the lead runner.
PU then proceeds to declare the B/R out on the look back violation.
As a result of this, the third base coach protested enough to be ejected.

1. Shouldn't the PU have just called the look back violation when he saw it?
2. What is your opinion on making that call, even though it may have been the right call, after that delay and conferring with the BU?

1) Probably. Depends on the umpires. If BU knows what he's doing, as PU, I'm leaving him to his call - assuming he saw something differently than I did and had a reason not to call it. If BU is unknown to me or just new, I likely call it immediately and discuss with partner afterward. I suppose there could be some middle ground if I was unsure whether the BU failed to make the call for reason A or reason B - which might land me in the official in question's situation... But if anything, doing so is ---

2) Problematic, and he's got to be ready to take a lot more crap than usual... but if the coach ejects himself anyway, so be it.

[RKBUmp]

Dont know about everyone else, but last thing I do before moving into new position is to take one last look at all the runners to make sure they are in fact standing on a base.

I would say if the PU saw it he should have just made the call. Waiting until after calling time, talking to his partner and then making the call just set up a major confrontation with the coach which obviously ended in an ejection. If the call had been made promptly the coach may very well have seen the runner off the base and it would have been a non issue.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Gulf Coast Blue

I know you are limited to what you are told.....but there is a whole lot more that needs to be known here to make a knowledgeable answer....

Joel

Yes, I am well aware of that.

I'm posting this here with the assumption that there was in fact a violation.
The BU that told me this is not a great umpire, but not a bad one, either. I don't know who the PU was.

My intent was to see how you all felt about making this call after a long delay and huddle between the officials.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Like most others, I believe that PU, if he sees what he believes is unmistakably a violation, he needs to call it immediately. Only if working with a very experienced partner who obviously is looking at it and judging something different should the PU defer to the BU in this case. Bluntly, the defense is entitled to enforcement of the rule, if it has been violated.

This is basically the same as calling what you see as an obvious interference when BU doesn't; defer to the experienced partner that obviously sees it and judges otherwise, but make the call if your partner freezes or clearly misses it. And do it with only the slightest hesitation (for the BU to make the call), so it doesn't appear like the opposing coaches talked you into it.

The delayed call is obviously an issue; as mentioned, no one sees the violation after the delay, while they may well if called timely and immediately. And, when (not if) the OC asks you go to your partner for the "different angle", you can find out if BU had a reason for a no call (and you can reverse if necessary), or simply blew the mechanic and didn't see it. (While you mention that YOU have lead, HE has trail; and not to turn his back until everyone is clearly stopped on a base with ball controlled by F1 in circle!!)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

Yes, I am well aware of that.

I'm posting this here with the assumption that there was in fact a violation.
The BU that told me this is not a great umpire, but not a bad one, either. I don't know who the PU was.

My intent was to see how you all felt about making this call after a long delay and huddle between the officials.

The BASE umpire relayed this story to you? Interesting... what was his explanation for not making the call - did he just forget who he was supposed to watch? Did he turn away too early? Did he see it and not judge it LBR for some reason?

[EsqUmp]

It makes me wonder whether the plate umpire neglected his own responsibility by turning his focus to the trail runner rather than the lead runner. I also wonder if the plate umpire was in proper position (we don't know where the runners ended up - I'm guessing 1st & 3rd). If the base umpire is inexperienced and the plate umpire was up the 3rd base line for the runner there, then the base umpire may have picked up on that and redirected his attention.

It's a good example of why umpires should have a pre-game and discuss coverages.

Umpires should not go to their positions until after the pitcher has the ball in the circle. If the ball is in the circle and the runners are off their bases, umpires should not be going to their positions yet. Only once they are on base should the base umpire go to his position, followed by the plate umpire.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

Situation presented to me from one of our local HS umpires:

Multiple runners on base, base hit to the outfield.
Ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle, BU starts moving to position, PU calls time and requests to talk to the BU.

PU's question to BU: Why didn't you call the look back violation on the batter-runner? That is your call.
BU: I didn't see that, I was watching the lead runner.
PU then proceeds to declare the B/R out on the look back violation.
As a result of this, the third base coach protested enough to be ejected.

1. Shouldn't the PU have just called the look back violation when he saw it?
2. What is your opinion on making that call, even though it may have been the right call, after that delay and conferring with the BU?

Don't suppose anyone wants to hear how I think this part of the game should be managed?

I am in the see it, call it if absolutely sure camp. But my question would be why is the BU watching the runner for which the PU is responsible?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Don't suppose anyone wants to hear how I think this part of the game should be managed?

I am in the see it, call it if absolutely sure camp. But my question would be why is the BU watching the runner for which the PU is responsible?

Rather than asking, why don't you just tell us? All of a sudden you need an invitation to express your opinion?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Rather than asking, why don't you just tell us? All of a sudden you need an invitation to express your opinion?

You've been here for two almost two years and you don't know how IM feels about the look back rule?????

He usually expresses that opinion about once a week or so.....

[LIUmp]

Unless this is an EGREGIOUS LBR violation on the B/R, what in the world is the plate umpire worrying so much about the B/R here? I'm assuming with multiple runners on there is at least another priority. Like I said, and let me be clear here...if it's a violation, then by all means call it, and call it immediately. But if the B/R wasn't going anywhere and it was the way it was described, I have a really hard time swallowing what happened here with this crew.

Talk about putting yourself in the game.