Play at first

[Rita C]

NFHS rules

Fair ball hit to F3, takes a bad bounce, hits F3 in chest. She recovers the ball in her glove, has control and reaches out to touch first base with her bare hand before the runner gets there.

I need rule citations to back up your call. I haven't found any good ones covering the subject yet. Or casebook.

Rita

[MD Longhorn]

You need a rule cite for what, exactly. I'm not following.

Out. Obviously. (Perhaps too obviously... hence my confusion)

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Rita C

NFHS rules

Fair ball hit to F3, takes a bad bounce, hits F3 in chest. She recovers the ball in her glove, has control and reaches out to touch first base with her bare hand before the runner gets there.

I need rule citations to back up your call. I haven't found any good ones covering the subject yet. Or casebook.

Rita

Look at the definition of tag (it has a part for the base). If you need more than that look at batter runner is out and find the one for first base is tagged before she gets there. Sorry books aren't close to grab references.

[CecilOne]

One of those, if not specified, universal is true.
The rules never say the base has to be touched by the ball, hand, foot or ....,
so, any part of body, and as a friend of mine says, one hair of a pony tail.

[MD Longhorn]

Ah! OK, now I see what the question was getting at. Must have more coffee...

The rule simply says that you have to touch the base. Period. No differentiation between left hand, right hand, foot, face, ponytail or shoelace.

You're not going to find a specific rule that says touching the base with the hand is enough - because touching the base with ANYTHING is all that's required.

[Manny A]

For FED, rule 2-38-2 gives the definition of Force Out. In part, it says, "...or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing." There is nothing in there that says the base touch has to be done with the hand or glove while it holds the ball.

Further clarification is in rule 2-62 which covers the definition of Touching. In there, it says in part, "Touching is contact with the ball, equipment, or a person. It applies to a...player touching a base. The term applies to contact with any part of the person or her clothing..."

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Manny A

For FED, rule 2-38-2 gives the definition of Force Out. In part, it says, "...or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing." There is nothing in there that says the base touch has to be done with the hand or glove while it holds the ball.

Further clarification is in rule 2-62 which covers the definition of Touching. In there, it says in part, "Touching is contact with the ball, equipment, or a person. It applies to a...player touching a base. The term applies to contact with any part of the person or her clothing..."

Definition of touch was what I needed. Thanks!

I had a partner yesterday tell me that he was dinged for calling it an out. So he believes it must be safe. Heaven forbid he should read the rulebook himself!

Pretty sure I won't be able to convince him though. I not the correct sex.

Rita

(It would be nice if it were as clear as it is in the FED baseball rulebook though.)

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Definition of touch was what I needed. Thanks!

I had a partner yesterday tell me that he was dinged for calling it an out. So he believes it must be safe. Heaven forbid he should read the rulebook himself!

Pretty sure I won't be able to convince him though. I not the correct sex.

Rita

(It would be nice if it were as clear as it is in the FED baseball rulebook though.)

What country is this again? Go kick his ***.

[CecilOne]

GENDER ! !

We only care who you are, not ...

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Manny A

For FED, rule 2-38-2 gives the definition of Force Out. In part, it says, "...or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing." There is nothing in there that says the base touch has to be done with the hand or glove while it holds the ball.

Further clarification is in rule 2-62 which covers the definition of Touching. In there, it says in part, "Touching is contact with the ball, equipment, or a person. It applies to a...player touching a base. The term applies to contact with any part of the person or her clothing..."

In no way would I NOT call an out at first in the situation that Rita described.
Except for her "buddy", I don't know anyone else who would either, but it goes back to the fact that no where does it describe a BR's advance to first as a force..

2-24 ART. 1 . . . A force play is a play in which a runner (or two or three runners) loses the right to the base occupied and is forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner.

THEN you have

2-38 ART. 2 . . . Force Out. A force out is a putout during which an offensive player who is being forced to advance is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing.

THEN you have

SECTION 2 BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
(snip)
ART. 2 . . . After hitting a fair ball the batter-runner is legally put out prior to reaching first base.

OK, where does it tell me how to legally put out a batter-runner?


You do have 8-6-3, but that deals with a runner... not a batter-runner.

SECTION 6 THE RUNNER IS OUT
A runner is out when:
ART. 3 . . . On a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball,
touches the ball to the base or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base.


Despite what I just wrote, I'll repeat, if I am the umpire.... SHE'S OUT.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

In no way would I NOT call an out at first in the situation that Rita described.
Except for her "buddy", I don't know anyone else who would either, but it goes back to the fact that no where does it describe a BR's advance to first as a force..

2-24 ART. 1 . . . A force play is a play in which a runner (or two or three runners) loses the right to the base occupied and is forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner.

THEN you have

2-38 ART. 2 . . . Force Out. A force out is a putout during which an offensive player who is being forced to advance is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing.

THEN you have

SECTION 2 BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT
The batter-runner shall be called out when:
(snip)
ART. 2 . . . After hitting a fair ball the batter-runner is legally put out prior to reaching first base.

OK, where does it tell me how to legally put out a batter-runner?


You do have 8-6-3, but that deals with a runner... not a batter-runner.

SECTION 6 THE RUNNER IS OUT
A runner is out when:
ART. 3 . . . On a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball,
touches the ball to the base or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base.


Despite what I just wrote, I'll repeat, if I am the umpire.... SHE'S OUT.

Yeah, there's always the issue that a BR going to first is technically not a force situation. But for all intents and purposes, it's treated the same way. A BR is put out at first the same way a forced runner is put out on the other bases. A run cannot score if the third out is a force out or an out on the BR before safely achieving first base. Etc. etc. etc.

So your breakdown of all the rules is nothing more than an academic exercise that, at the end of the day, doesn't really disprove that a forced runner and a BR going to first are to be treated any differently. Those few areas in the rules that only talk of force plays (like 2-38-2 and 8-6-3) equally apply to the BR at first even though they don't specifically say so.

[Roger Greene]

"OK, where does it tell me how to legally put out a batter-runner? "

They left that rule out when they reorganized the book about 8 or 10 years ago.

We discussed it here and the Rules Committee was notified of the problem.

They chose not to admit their error by making the correction. Therefore we only call batter-runners out when first base is touched by a fielder in possession of the ball by history and tradition.