2013 CCA Umpire Manual

[shagpal]

You have to remember to move to a deeper calling position on force plays, not just for U1 but for U3, else, the play explodes. Backing up to a deeper calling distance on force plays and getting a 90 on the throw is part of pre-pitch planning, something that should be done between pitches for every pitch.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How would you adjust to a high throw that close to the play?

Don't get me wrong, I'm often up close and personal @ 3B, but not @ 1B.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

To help the BU bracket the run-down.

I was thinking of the usual move with runners on, up the 3rd base line in foul ground.
Then, crossing inside near 3rd if needed.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How would you adjust to a high throw that close to the play?

Don't get me wrong, I'm often up close and personal @ 3B, but not @ 1B.

If I read a high throw, (pick-off at 1st as U1 or steal at 2nd as U2) I'm not going to immediately close down on the play, I'll read the fielder, then adjust as necessary if I need to make a call.
If the throw 'sailed', I'm getting ready for my next responsibility on any subsequent play that may develop.

I think each of us have our own starting distance 'comfort zone' (within the distance recommended in the Manual) for this rotation. I'm sure that for all of us that choice is based on numerous factors other than our personal preference and may even/should change slightly from batter to batter based on fielder position, ability to see our areas of responsibility, R1's speed (or lack of), B1 being a bunter/slapper, F2's arm, F2's style of pick-off throw etc.

Mine is 6-7 ft. as U1, and 8 ft. as U2 and I've been using that distance prior to the recent mechanic change. In my case, feedback from and work with evaluators and clinicians got me there....but that's me.

Needless to say, there's no one size fits all 'X marks the spot.'

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

If I read a high throw, (pick-off at 1st as U1 or steal at 2nd as U2) I'm not going to immediately close down on the play, I'll read the fielder, then adjust as necessary if I need to make a call.
If the throw 'sailed', I'm getting ready for my next responsibility on any subsequent play that may develop.

The statement referred to the starting point with a runner on 1st.

With R1 on 1st base only, the starting distance for both 1BU and 3BU has been cut down from 6-12 feet to 6-10 feet.

That means you are too close if there is a high throw to put out the BR @ 1B.

I would rather stay back and step in AFTER the pitch for a possible play on the runner. Now, maybe the statement was taken out of context and I'm not seeing something, I don't know.

I think each of us have our own starting distance 'comfort zone' (within the distance recommended in the Manual) for this rotation. I'm sure that for all of us that choice is based on numerous factors other than our personal preference and may even/should change slightly from batter to batter based on fielder position, ability to see our areas of responsibility, R1's speed (or lack of), B1 being a bunter/slapper, F2's arm, F2's style of pick-off throw etc.

Mine is 6-7 ft. as U1, and 8 ft. as U2 and I've been using that distance prior to the recent mechanic change. In my case, feedback from and work with evaluators and clinicians got me there....but that's me.

Needless to say, there's no one size fits all 'X marks the spot.'

Agree. Even more so if I have an antsy fielder moving around a lot. I may stay a few feet deeper and step into position just prior to the pitch. But as you say, it can be different and based upon almost every element of the environment.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Mike, these three pieces of information are the crux of the argument.

In ASA, you are not just coming inside the diamond, you have responsibility at first base. Therefore, you can't just "check up" at second.

That is true, but I do not have to be that close to see it. Besides, as I've been told, we are discussing NCAA . BTW, I don't remember saying anything about the umpire checking up at 2B

Again, here is when you and Esq are in AGREEMENT. Reading the play is so very vital, and I will contend that this is a deficiency of ASA's training methodology. However, that is understandable, considering the wide variance in abilities and experience.

Don't you start spreading rumors like that

And here is where the inside falls apart. By your own admission, you have to follow the ball in flight, which means that you do not have the runner in your vision. So you are giving up on the obstruction? And again by YOUR s*** happens, you are giving up on that too because you were too worried about the flight of the ball?

Now this is where you and Esq agree on missing the point I have made. Who says I'm going that far into the middle of the field? I am NOT a "you cannot have a play without the ball" believer. Which means I am watching the runner when near a defender and the ball will still be in front of me with the runner. But still, if there is going to be a play @ 3B, the ball will most likely turn me facing the runner approaching 3B. And if the runner is getting there that far ahead of the ball, I may be moving my priority to the runner when nearing the base or defender. Doesn't mean I do not know where the ball is, it just means I am focusing on the play at hand.

Now I'll step out of my critique and help you out. The solution is to get DEEPER into the infield, and the come "into" a play at either second or third. That way you do keep everything in front of you while staying out of a throwing lane (yes, they do exist). However, the other solution is to 1) allow PU to have the responsibility at first and allow U3 more opportunity to read the play and utilize the best path possible.

Again, a 60' field is SMALL, very SMALL. It doesn't take as much effort as people think. And if some old fart like myself can handle it, someone as young and healthy as you should be able to do it standing on your head.

The umpire must take into consideration more than where s/he is going to stand to view the play. The umpire must be aware of the direction of the throw, the defenders in place to make a play and especially if there is a player in position to cut the throw should a runner check up or stumble and attempts to retreat. No matter how rare it is, if the umpire is not prepared for it......well, I just want to make sure that is not what happens.

All I am saying which seems to be the point missed is that I can (and any umpire should be able to) work the inside from 3B and still keep the ball the runner and defenders involved in front of me without looking over a shoulder and be prepared for the TWP that no one ever expects.

BTW, I can, and have, done this in ASA ball also and with up to 80' bases (Major SP). The advantage there is that the likelihood of a throw to 1B is extremely rare, damn near non-existent, but you still watch the touch along with the PU

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That is true, but I do not have to be that close to see it. Besides, as I've been told, we are discussing NCAA . BTW, I don't remember saying anything about the umpire checking up at 2B

Well, the discussion is contrasting the two philosophies, so ASA comes into play. More on the umpire "checking up" in just a moment.

Now this is where you and Esq agree on missing the point I have made. Who says I'm going that far into the middle of the field? I am NOT a "you cannot have a play without the ball" believer. Which means I am watching the runner when near a defender and the ball will still be in front of me with the runner. But still, if there is going to be a play @ 3B, the ball will most likely turn me facing the runner approaching 3B. And if the runner is getting there that far ahead of the ball, I may be moving my priority to the runner when nearing the base or defender. Doesn't mean I do not know where the ball is, it just means I am focusing on the play at hand.

No, we both got the point, and you make our point for us as well. What you are doing is READING the play. If the most likely play is at second, you don't continuing all the way to first; if you get indication the runner is not stopping at second, you take a different path/vantage point. Furthermore, you also know where the ball is coming from: from Right Center, you are more tight to the base; closer to the RF line, you are wider.

Our point is that ASA lacks this in their training by not allowing the umpire options. How about this: I stay outside on this play, how many times will I lose any element? Answer: none. If I come inside, and you have seen this, how many time do we see umpires duck out in the last minute? Answer: often. There is a multi-faceted solution to this and it involves more than just staying outside or moving inside. It can be done inside, but you have to use your brain.

someone as young and healthy as you should be able to do it standing on your head.

Don't go spreading that rumor. I've put a few orthopod's kids through college. And young? Hell, I lived through the Reagan years (ok, I was not eligible to vote for Ronnie either time).

The umpire must take into consideration more than where s/he is going to stand to view the play. The umpire must be aware of the direction of the throw, the defenders in place to make a play and especially if there is a player in position to cut the throw should a runner check up or stumble and attempts to retreat. No matter how rare it is, if the umpire is not prepared for it......well, I just want to make sure that is not what happens.

Yes, yes and yes. It actually takes a lot more energy to do this inside than outside. That's rather paradoxical, in that ASA requires the mechanic with the most effort to those with the least talent.

All I am saying which seems to be the point missed is that I can (and any umpire should be able to) work the inside from 3B and still keep the ball the runner and defenders involved in front of me without looking over a shoulder and be prepared for the TWP that no one ever expects.

I did say you can, but there is greater risk for missing something. And it also involves the level of play. As you mentioned, in Major SP, there wasn't any plays at first, and probably not that many triples (doubles or HR's, right?). In the GOLD last year, I can't recall having any triples (and I'm happy I didn't have any U1 chasing with no on for me to get my young and healthy self across to first - but I did see a U3 trip on the sprinkler on the stadium field!). But other divisions is a different story.

Bottom line, I prefer to have an option.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The statement referred to the starting point with a runner on 1st.

With R1 on 1st base only, the starting distance for both 1BU and 3BU has been cut down from 6-12 feet to 6-10 feet.

That means you are too close if there is a high throw to put out the BR @ 1B.

I would rather stay back and step in AFTER the pitch for a possible play on the runner. Now, maybe the statement was taken out of context and I'm not seeing something, I don't know.

In choosing the starting positions and calling positions, the NCAA concluded the following:

1. It is better to have an umpire in the calling position to start with when there is a potential pickoff or steal. Their reasoning is that the umpire has significantly less time to react than on a typical play in the infield. They feel that even if the umpire only has to take two steps to get into the calling position, the umpire will likely be moving when the play occurs, which is never a good thing.

2. On force plays, the umpire need only drift a step or two back to be in the proper calling distance. The umpire has more time to do this since the runner must travel 60 feet and the umpire only has to drift back and over a few steps. The umpire should not remain in the 6-10 for force plays. That is too close and the umpire won't be able to see the forest through the trees.

By cutting down the maximum starting distance to 10 feet but leaving the minimum distance at 6 feet, my guess is that the SUP thought that too many umpires were probably closer to 15 feet. So, by cutting it to 10 feet, maybe they will only be 12 feet, which is what they found acceptable before.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The statement referred to the starting point with a runner on 1st.


That means you are too close if there is a high throw to put out the BR @ 1B.

That's your opinion, and thats fine. I always enjoy reading your thoughts on mechanics (and rules), whether I agree or disagree, your POV always brings something to the discussion that makes me think of something I haven't taken into consideration.

Where I am in this rotation is where my coordinator's evaluators have 'strongly suggested' I be when I'm on the line as U1 with a runner on first.
They have their reasons, they make sense, and it's worked well for me in games.
I work for them at their pleasure. Being as how I like to see both the quantity and quality of my schedule improve each year, there's not much more to say.

Your point regarding a high throw on throw from an infielder making a play on the BR is a fair one. Except for a throw from F4, I can make the necessary adjustment to a proper calling depth for a force play as I'm moving into the infield. If its coming from F4, I'm taking the call from foul territory where I've got room to adjust to the the proper calling distance.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

No, we both got the point, and you make our point for us as well. What you are doing is READING the play. If the most likely play is at second, you don't continuing all the way to first; if you get indication the runner is not stopping at second, you take a different path/vantage point. Furthermore, you also know where the ball is coming from: from Right Center, you are more tight to the base; closer to the RF line, you are wider.

I'm wider! You callin' me fat? Actually, my point was that just because I'm on the inside, I, nor any umpire, should need to be looking over the shoulder for anything and can keep every element in front of me that you can from the outside.

Our point is that ASA lacks this in their training by not allowing the umpire options.

I'm still talking NCAA, but I would use it regardless of the game.

How about this: I stay outside on this play, how many times will I lose any element? Answer: none. If I come inside, and you have seen this, how many time do we see umpires duck out in the last minute? Answer: often.

Yes, just like I have in NCAA Super regionals when the umpire was so intent on getting a 90 she stepped right into the path of a possible throw. Saw this twice in the same series.

But, as I previously noted, I'm going to have the ball in sight, so why would I have a need to duck, I'm not going to be in the ball's path. Then again, if you want to talk about bad mechanics, this is going to turn into one long, long thread.

There is a multi-faceted solution to this and it involves more than just staying outside or moving inside. It can be done inside, but you have to use your brain.

Now it is stupid? Fat and stupid? Really?

Look, it isn't that hard. I prefer the inside because no matter what happens, I can get a good angle no matter what happens whether it is one runner or three. Yes, it is a standardized mechanic. That doesn't mean it does not work.

Don't go spreading that rumor. I've put a few orthopod's kids through college. And young? Hell, I lived through the Reagan years (ok, I was not eligible to vote for Ronnie either time).

And I voted for Nixon

Yes, yes and yes. It actually takes a lot more energy to do this inside than outside. That's rather paradoxical, in that ASA requires the mechanic with the most effort to those with the least talent.

I did say you can, but there is greater risk for missing something.

And I don't think there is any risk of missing anything if executed properly

[PATRICK]

someone as young and healthy as you

I saw Big Slick Sunday, he is VERY healthy!

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

someone as young and healthy as you

I saw Big Slick Sunday, he is VERY healthy!

"healthy" as in "well fed."