2013 CCA Umpire Manual

[shagpal]

The looking over the shoulder happens if it develops into a triple. U3 would parallel the BR on the outside going into 3b in NCAA. By having it all in front, you can adjust your calling position for a front side 90, or angled according to see a swipe tag, or over the top with a step in. You give your PU clear and unobstructed view of the other 90 on the play at 3b.

For your ASA, you would apply inside-outside and parallel the runner INSIDE the diamond. You would do so while the ball is thrown from right field for a play at 3b. You would need to locate the thrown ball turned around while paralleling, and your path could be right where the ball will travel into the play. Hence you have a play in front with a ball coming from behind you. If you try for a true leading edge 90, you might block the view of the play for your PU, so you are pinned to the ASA 45 standard calling position behind the leading edge of the play. How does that situation would allow you to stay a step ahead and "adjust" better?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

IMO, your assertion that the outside is a clearer or easier view is not accurate. What are you going to see outside that I will not see inside? I will have the defense, offense, ball and base in front of me.

Staying outside gives you a weak angle for a potential play @ 2B that may require some fancy footwork to get the right angle for a clear view at the play. Being inside can give the umpire an effortless 90 to any throw from the right side and a great look at a play on either side of the base. Also allows and easy and quick conversion from one base to the other depending on the play. Please note that just because I would be coming inside, doesn't mean I'm running to the middle of the field. Once I enter the diamond, I'm reading the play and like any other, move to the best position for the most likely, if any, play.

Outside may work out quite well for the routine plays. I'd prefer to stay a step ahead and prepare for the non-routine plays and I think the inside just offers a better opportunity to adjust.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The difference is between looking back over your shoulder or simply looking up. I prefer to look simply look up, rather than back over my shoulder to see the ball.

As I specifically wrote, this is if there is no play on the BR @ 2nd base. You have changed the facts to argue a point.

Sticking with my play (because that's the one written in the manual and the one we are discussing), can you say why it is better to go inside with NO play at 2nd base?

You and I are going to agree here. Yes, when a ball is hit to RF with no runners on and U1 chases, reading the play for 1) inside calling position at second or 2) staying outside for the runner into third (which is you play) is perfect application of NCAA mechanics. It affords U3 the best option at any base, based on the play. I am in total agreement, however the big lynchpin is U3 properly reading the play.

Now, while I'm not going to defend Irish, I will say that ASA's inside positioning is necessary because of something he is omitting. In 3 umpire ASA, when U1 chases at any times, U3 has responsibility for BR at first base; NCAA give the responsibility to PU for BR at first in this specific case. Therefore, U3 would be cutting across the diamond (possibly pitcher's plate) to cover first, take the runner to second and then to third. This deeper positioning does afford U3 an open look to stay out of any throwing lanes (yes, Mike . . throwing lane) that F8/F9/F4 would use to throw to third. But there is reading the ball and play for optional position, which is something ASA does not direct very well. It is getting better, but needs to vastly improve.

Therefore the debate isn't "outside vs. inside", but whether U3 should have responsibility at first base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

For that rotation (No runners on/U1 chases/ball not caught, on a double or triple) PU's mechanic and responsibility is:

>"Move all the way to a primary position for a possible force play at first base."
>"Watch the batter-runner approach, touch, or round at first base."

Yeah, forgot we were on NCAA.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Timing or cost.

What's interesting is that there were a lot of subtle changes (yes, even more subtle than the ones discussed) that made their way into the manual.

Unfortunately, several test questions dealt with material that was in the 2012 manual but removed from the 2013 manual. Not everyone has the 2012 manual. I thought that it was poor not to update or remove those questions. Additionally, many (perhaps all) of the reference pages were incorrect on the test answer sheet because of the restructuring of the book.

I'm hoping for a bit more from NCAA next year.

See everyone, it's not just ASA that I think could use a bit of updating and perfecting.

[shagpal]

The "chute" play is ASA way of accommodating for that slow and immobile silverback PU while torturing the usually speedy rookie "rabbit" U3 in true "not all umpires are created equal" fashion. If the play is obviously gonna be extra bases, how hard is it for an experienced PU to read that and watch the touch at first? Even Irish could do that.

Originally Posted by Big Slick

You and I are going to agree here. Yes, when a ball is hit to RF with no runners on and U1 chases, reading the play for 1) inside calling position at second or 2) staying outside for the runner into third (which is you play) is perfect application of NCAA mechanics. It affords U3 the best option at any base, based on the play. I am in total agreement, however the big lynchpin is U3 properly reading the play.

Now, while I'm not going to defend Irish, I will say that ASA's inside positioning is necessary because of something he is omitting. In 3 umpire ASA, when U1 chases at any times, U3 has responsibility for BR at first base; NCAA give the responsibility to PU for BR at first in this specific case. Therefore, U3 would be cutting across the diamond (possibly pitcher's plate) to cover first, take the runner to second and then to third. This deeper positioning does afford U3 an open look to stay out of any throwing lanes (yes, Mike . . throwing lane) that F8/F9/F4 would use to throw to third. But there is reading the ball and play for optional position, which is something ASA does not direct very well. It is getting better, but needs to vastly improve.

Therefore the debate isn't "outside vs. inside", but whether U3 should have responsibility at first base.

[x-tremeump]

I am sorry that I missed all of this... Kill The Clones I get angry at the OLD TIMERS and delete the forum from my favorites.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why is the PU inside the diamond?

To help the BU bracket the run-down.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The difference is between looking back over your shoulder or simply looking up. I prefer to look simply look up, rather than back over my shoulder to see the ball.

Maybe you have issues with umpires who are too lazy to watch the ball, but I am not aware of any situation where 3U would have to look over their shoulder to find the ball, outside or inside. So, you keep talking about something that should never happen with an umpire utilizing the proper mechanics.

As I specifically wrote, this is if there is no play on the BR @ 2nd base. You have changed the facts to argue a point.

As the umpire, you do not know that there will never be a play at 2B. As I noted, I'd rather be prepared for all possible plays, not just those that should occur in a perfect world.

Sticking with my play (because that's the one written in the manual and the one we are discussing), can you say why it is better to go inside with NO play at 2nd base?

IF there is no play at 2nd, it isn't any better. Otherwise, see above.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

The "chute" play is ASA way of accommodating for that slow and immobile silverback PU while torturing the usually speedy rookie "rabbit" U3 in true "not all umpires are created equal" fashion. If the play is obviously gonna be extra bases, how hard is it for an experienced PU to read that and watch the touch at first? Even Irish could do that.

The way you people whine, you would think it was a 90' field. It isn't that hard to cover a small FP field.

FYI, in ASA if the PU doesn't have any other duties, guess what the PU is doing when the BR takes off to 1B?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

And what could possibly be the compelling reason to change from a max of 12 feet to a max of 10 feet when positioning on the line with a runner at their base?

......and when U3 is rotated with a runner on first.

Less distance to cover getting to your initial primary position and making whatever adjustments the play dictates.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

......and when U3 is rotated with a runner on first.

Less distance to cover getting to your initial primary position and making whatever adjustments the play dictates.

How would you adjust to a high throw that close to the play?

Don't get me wrong, I'm often up close and personal @ 3B, but not @ 1B.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Maybe you have issues with umpires who are too lazy to watch the ball, but I am not aware of any situation where 3U would have to look over their shoulder to find the ball, outside or inside. So, you keep talking about something that should never happen with an umpire utilizing the proper mechanics.

If the ball is hit down the right field line, then the umpire's face has a tendency to be facing away from the ball when the umpire is inside the diamond. Yes, a competent umpire can look over his shoulder to see the ball.

If the umpire is inside the diamond, the runner has just rounded 2nd base and the right fielder is picking the ball up near the line, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see all of the elements at one time once the runner nears the shortstop area.

My point is that if the umpire stays outside the diamond, he is always facing the ball. Rather than finding the ball, it is always there in front of him.

All things being equal, I'd rather the ball be in front of my rather than look back to it.


Changing the play again, let's say there is a play at 2nd base and the umpire properly stayed outside in the NCAA game. Great - take two or three steps in and make the call. However, I don't buy that nonsense that you can't predict where the play is. That's what umpires do all the time. I can tell you there won't be a play at 2nd base if the right fielder dove for a ball on the line, missed it and it ends up against the outfield fence. Either the runner is going to 3rd base or she is the so inept that she is stopping at 2nd base with no play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

If the ball is hit down the right field line, then the umpire's face has a tendency to be facing away from the ball when the umpire is inside the diamond. Yes, a competent umpire can look over his shoulder to see the ball.

If the umpire is inside the diamond, the runner has just rounded 2nd base and the right fielder is picking the ball up near the line, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see all of the elements at one time once the runner nears the shortstop area.

My point is that if the umpire stays outside the diamond, he is always facing the ball. Rather than finding the ball, it is always there in front of him.

All things being equal, I'd rather the ball be in front of my rather than look back to it.

Talk about changing the parameters to suit an argument. I'm saying your perception of how I would cover this is wrong. Why would I need to turn my body away from the ball coming inside from 3B? Are you under the impression that I'm going to sprint to a location between the circle and 2B and just plant myself there? If so, I would like to know what I offered to give you that perception.

I'm coming inside the diamond and unless there is the obvious possibility of a play at 2B (which you are stating there will not be), I'm probably going to remain in the area closer to the 3BL. If it DOES seem possible the runner will check up at 2B or just beyond 3B, I'm just a couple strides from a 45 to 2B and can close as the play continues. If not, I will be facing the ball while in flight, all the way to 3B. Once it becomes obvious that any play will be at 3B, I will turn with the ball and maybe even sidle a couple steps toward the 3BL to get a view down the inside edge of the base. During the entire play, the ball will never see my back.

Changing the play again, let's say there is a play at 2nd base and the umpire properly stayed outside in the NCAA game. Great - take two or three steps in and make the call. However, I don't buy that nonsense that you can't predict where the play is. That's what umpires do all the time. I can tell you there won't be a play at 2nd base if the right fielder dove for a ball on the line, missed it and it ends up against the outfield fence. Either the runner is going to 3rd base or she is the so inept that she is stopping at 2nd base with no play.

So, you admit that it is possible that the runner could stop at 2B and there could be a play? You know, **** happens and no, the umpire or anyone else KNOWS it is going to happen. Runners sometimes do stupid things, from misreading a base coach to tripping over the base, it happens. There are also some players who wouldn't get to 2B on the play you described. Not everyone is Natasha Whatley.

Whether that umpire can get an angle with 2-3 steps depends a lot on the area from where the throw originates and the approach the runner takes toward the base. May work for him/her, may not. We can what if this until the cows come home, you have a prescribed NCAA mechanic base on probabilities and I have my preferred mechanic based on possibilities. I feel I will be more comfortable and flexible where I go and have less "oh, ****!" moments when a play breaks down

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I'm coming inside the diamond and unless there is the obvious possibility of a play at 2B (which you are stating there will not be), I'm probably going to remain in the area closer to the 3BL. If it DOES seem possible the runner will check up at 2B or just beyond 3B, I'm just a couple strides from a 45 to 2B and can close as the play continues. If not, I will be facing the ball while in flight, all the way to 3B. Once it becomes obvious that any play will be at 3B, I will turn with the ball and maybe even sidle a couple steps toward the 3BL to get a view down the inside edge of the base. During the entire play, the ball will never see my back.

Mike, these three pieces of information are the crux of the argument.

In ASA, you are not just coming inside the diamond, you have responsibility at first base. Therefore, you can't just "check up" at second.

Again, here is when you and Esq are in AGREEMENT. Reading the play is so very vital, and I will contend that this is a deficiency of ASA's training methodology. However, that is understandable, considering the wide variance in abilities and experience.

And here is where the inside falls apart. By your own admission, you have to follow the ball in flight, which means that you do not have the runner in your vision. So you are giving up on the obstruction? And again by YOUR s*** happens, you are giving up on that too because you were too worried about the flight of the ball?

Now I'll step out of my critique and help you out. The solution is to get DEEPER into the infield, and the come "into" a play at either second or third. That way you do keep everything in front of you while staying out of a throwing lane (yes, they do exist). However, the other solution is to 1) allow PU to have the responsibility at first and allow U3 more opportunity to read the play and utilize the best path possible.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

FYI, in ASA if the PU doesn't have any other duties, guess what the PU is doing when the BR takes off to 1B?

I think this is something that needs to be changed. What needs to be taught is to "tail the BR only when there is a play at first." NCAA finally made this explicit. Not that I'm saying it is correct because NCAA said it, it is just plainly "right."

Ok, let me justify. ASA's work force varies in experience and aptitude. To teach to this crowd, ASA very much strives for the simplest mechanics - inside/outside in an example as well as the one we are discussing about U3 taking first base when U1 chases. This is simple, very few mechanics are situational.

So ASA says: trail the BR to first with no runners on. But why? On a base hit, BU comes inside to take the runner, what is the PU going to see that BU can't? NOTHING. Except that we have two umpires that are about 20 feet from each other. That just looks goofy, and even more goofy on the DVD.