running into your teammates(s)

cmtsguy22 · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 20, 2003, 07:10am

Situation: bases loaded. batter hits ball back to pitcher. pitcher throws home to force out R3. catcher throws high to 1B and batter-runner is safe at first. R2 decides to run home. R3 that was forced out already is still in the field of play between 3B and HP. R2 runs into R3, who again is already out, and they both fall to the ground. R2 gets up and slides under the tag and he is safe. The umpire didn't see the 2 guys collide. Question is, should R2 be out also for running into R3? Would R3 who was forced out be considered a coach now since he was forced out or is he still a runner since the play is still going on??

IRISHMAFIA · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 20, 2003, 08:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by cmtsguy22
Situation: bases loaded. batter hits ball back to pitcher. pitcher throws home to force out R3. catcher throws high to 1B and batter-runner is safe at first. R2 decides to run home. R3 that was forced out already is still in the field of play between 3B and HP. R2 runs into R3, who again is already out, and they both fall to the ground. R2 gets up and slides under the tag and he is safe. The umpire didn't see the 2 guys collide. Question is, should R2 be out also for running into R3? Would R3 who was forced out be considered a coach now since he was forced out or is he still a runner since the play is still going on??

Okay, so we have bases loaded, R1 is forced out at the plate. All other play irrelevant. R2 collides with one of his teammates in an effort to score.

As long as that teammate did nothing to aid R2 to their feet or either direction, you have nothing. If the player pushes, shoves or lifts R2 in any manner, you have assisting a runner by someone not permitted, R2 is out.

whiskers_ump · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 20, 2003, 08:15am

Quote:

Originally posted by cmtsguy22
Situation: bases loaded. batter hits ball back to pitcher. pitcher throws home to force out R3. catcher throws high to 1B and batter-runner is safe at first. R2 decides to run home. R3 that was forced out already is still in the field of play between 3B and HP. R2 runs into R3, who again is already out, and they both fall to the ground. R2 gets up and slides under the tag and he is safe. The umpire didn't see the 2 guys collide. Question is, should R2 be out also for running into R3? Would R3 who was forced out be considered a coach now since he was forced out or is he still a runner since the play is still going on??

If R3 did not interfer with F2's attempt at putting R2 out and did
not in anyway assist R2, then in my opinion, R2 would not be out
for merely running into his/her own player. However, R3 should
have vacated the action area especially with the time involved
in throwing from HP to 1B and back. If at anytime PU thought
that R3 interferred with the play, then yes, you have an out on
R2 as well.

What was the ruling on the play?

glen

cmtsguy22 · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 20, 2003, 10:55am

HU didn't see the collision even though R3 was on the ground for 2 minutes after the collison happened and play ended. Game was out of reach for teh team in the field anyways and maybe thats why the HU didn't turn as quickly back to see the play or he just assumed the R2 was going to stay at 3B, not sure.

CecilOne · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 20, 2003, 11:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by cmtsguy22
HU didn't see the collision even though R3 was on the ground for 2 minutes after the collison happened and play ended. Game was out of reach for teh team in the field anyways and maybe thats why the HU didn't turn as quickly back to see the play or he just assumed the R2 was going to stay at 3B, not sure.

That's a different question.

IRISHMAFIA · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 20, 2003, 11:30am

Quote:

Originally posted by cmtsguy22
HU didn't see the collision even though R3 was on the ground for 2 minutes after the collison happened and play ended. Game was out of reach for teh team in the field anyways and maybe thats why the HU didn't turn as quickly back to see the play or he just assumed the R2 was going to stay at 3B, not sure.

Cannot call what one didn't see. R1 may be down for the count, but R2 scores.

Dakota · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 09:47am

Direct question: I agree with Mike - if the umpire did not see it, then he can't call it. Play happens just as if the players did not collide (since "officially" they didn't).

Indirect question: What if the umpire had seen it?

Well, you can't call obstruction on the offense, so unless the retired runner assisted the runner or got in the way of the defensive play, you've got nothing.

eureka25 · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 10:21am

Now I see this in a different light. Let's say the umpire did see the play. Now there is a call to make - or not make. I dont't think the umpire is to judge the "intent" of the offensive player who was run into. If a player is on the field of play, then is that player considered a coach ???
Take the case of a third base coach. Any contact made between the coach and the runner - runner is out. "Intent" is not an option.

Therefore, if a runner runs into another offensive player - runner is out.

That is my two cents. Please advise.

Jeff

Steve M · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 10:36am

Jeff,
Read carefully what Mike said. Running into a coach or retired/scored runner does not constitute interference in & of itself. If the coach or retired/scored runner does not assist the "live" runner, there is no interference - and there is not impact on the fielder.

Steve M

Dakota · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 10:42am

Jeff,

Two things...

First, R1 does not morph into being a coach. R1 is a retired runner.

Second, speaking ASA, your statement,

Quote:

Any contact made between the coach and the runner - runner is out. "Intent" is not an option.

is incorrect. "Contact" is not what is illegal. "Assistance" is. The rule reads as follows:

Quote:

ASA 8-7E The runner is out when anyone other than another runner physically assists the runner while the ball is in play

"anyone other than another runner" includes a retired runner. It does not have to be a coach. "Physially assists" can be things like grabbing the runner to hold them on base, pushing the runner to get them moving, grabbing the runner's hand to pull him to his feet, etc. Getting in the way of a runner gunning for home is unlikely to be considered "assisting."

eureka25 · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 10:59am

By the previous posts, I am to conlcude that this is a judgement call on the umpire to determine intent of a third base coach, runner or retired runner if they were trying to aid the runner.

So is this a true statement - Incidental contact with a third base does not necessarily put a runner out, unless the coach "assists" that runner in the umpire's judgement.

Jeff

Dakota · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 11:35am

Quote:

Originally posted by eureka25
By the previous posts, I am to conlcude that this is a judgement call on the umpire to determine intent of a third base coach, runner or retired runner if they were trying to aid the runner.

It is not illegal for one runner to assist another runner.

Quote:

So is this a true statement - Incidental contact with a third base {coach} does not necessarily put a runner out, unless the coach "assists" that runner in the umpire's judgement.

Jeff

Correct, but remember, assistance from a coach can take many forms - trying to get the runner to pay attention, trying to get the runner to hold up, trying to get the runner to continue, etc. Avoiding all contact is the best policy for the coach, but if a runner has a clear shot to home, and running wide collides with the coach, that would not be assistance by the coach. After the collision, if the coach helps the runner get to his feet, or grabs the runner to keep him at 3rd, etc., then that would be assistance. And you are correct, it is a judgment call.

DownTownTonyBrown · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cmtsguy22
R3 was on the ground for 2 minutes after the collison happened and play ended.

2 MINUTES! You've got to be exagerating a little here.

Did anybody check the runner to see if he was dead?

I could easily see two separate at-bats, and subsequent plays, taking place during two minutes. Did any other runners trip over him? He must have been lying in foul territory - no worry about the batted ball hitting him.

In all seriousness, I would assume that the first runner in to home (called out on the force) was likely picking up the bat to get it out of the way for the next runner... collision occurred. There is no subversion here - incidental contact; play continues.

As the plate ump, when I think there is going to be a play at home, I always try to take the ONE second to kick the bat towards the dugout. If I don't get it on the first attempt, I leave it alone and might stand close to it and say to the runner "watch out for the bat." as he goes by. You can't spend time looking away and reaching for the bat - a quick flick of the foot is the greatest effort I will make.

CecilOne · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 21, 2003, 10:33pm

We have been taught to leave the bat alone to avoid three risks:
- hurting yourself with it
- injury (spelled l a w s u i t) to a player in the way
- injury (spelled l a w s u i t) to another player because of where it ended up

Dakota · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 22, 2003, 09:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
We have been taught to leave the bat alone to avoid three risks..

I think we tend to overestimate the lawsuit angle. But, the only thing I do with bats lying on the ground is try to avoid tripping over them!