Softball Trivia

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Am I close?

You are close if all those people I insist are wrong are instead right! (Yours is the crux of the argument I disagree with).

I'll ask just one follow up question to you specifically... if the ball becomes fair the instant it hits the BR (making BR - was BR out BEFORE the ball hit him?) IOW - he wasn't "retired" until the exact same instant that the (supposed) interference occurred.

However, I will also say this is NOT the crux of the argument, to me.

[DaveASA/FED]

Looks like in ASA you only have 1 out. 8.2.i says:
I. When an infield fly is declared and the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner
before reaching first base.
EFFECT: The ball is dead and the infield fly is invoked.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Looks like in ASA you only have 1 out. 8.2.i says:
I. When an infield fly is declared and the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner
before reaching first base.
EFFECT: The ball is dead and the infield fly is invoked.

If we are talking ASA,
I don't understand what else needs to be said.

[CecilOne]

As far as I know, in the IFR the batter is out at the moment the ball is struck; as long as it turns out to be an IF and that includes being fair.

The batter running toward 1st was retired because the above happened.
That seems like a dead ball to me.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You are close if all those people I insist are wrong are instead right! (Yours is the crux of the argument I disagree with).

I'll ask just one follow up question to you specifically... if the ball becomes fair the instant it hits the BR (making BR - was BR out BEFORE the ball hit him?) IOW - he wasn't "retired" until the exact same instant that the (supposed) interference occurred.

However, I will also say this is NOT the crux of the argument, to me.

BR is not out until it's an IFF which requires the ball to be fair. Since the question of fair/foul cannot be answered until, in this case, it hits the BR, then yes, it is instantaneously both of the following: a fair ball and an IFF.

And, regardless what happens AFTER the ball ricochets off, I am going to have a hard time seeing an interference at the time of contact when your OP states "no one makes an attempt to field it".

Steve, this is a valid point IMO. In fact, as stated in the OP this alleged interference may have actually been of great assistance to the defense.

Mike, what are you saying would the proper ruling IYO?

[Manny A]

Hmmmm. Is the batter-runner really a viable batter-runner for rules purposes after she's been declared out do to the IFF? Or is she no longer a viable batter-runner once that declaration has been made?

I don't see anything that would lead us to keep her as a batter-runner while the ball's disposition of fair or foul is still up in the air (no pun intended). Suppose the batter hits a very high fly that is declared an IFF. Before it reaches the ground, the batter-runner passes the runner at first base. Do you then call her out for passing the runner and score it that way in the book? Or do you still have her out for the IFF?

I'm not sure if that's what Mike is hung up on, nor am I sure it has any bearing on this particular play. I guess the question boils down to this: Is this considered a fair batted ball hitting a batter-runner, or a fair batted ball blocked by an offensive team member?

[AtlUmpSteve]

The answer I have is that IF it is a fair batted ball, then that is a retired offensive team member that blocked the ball, not a batter-runner; but if it ends up foul, it is simply a foul ball. Nothing inherently wrong with a batter running to first instinctively when hitting the ball, even if she can't ever actually be a batter-runner in this case.

Despite being blocked (and thus immediately dead) by the retired batter, there must be a "play" for there to be interference.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The answer I have is that IF it is a fair batted ball, then that is a retired offensive team member that blocked the ball, not a batter-runner; but if it ends up foul, it is simply a foul ball. Nothing inherently wrong with a batter running to first instinctively when hitting the ball, even if she can't ever actually be a batter-runner in this case.

Despite being blocked (and thus immediately dead) by the retired batter, there must be a "play" for there to be interference.

What he said.

[HugoTafurst]

Mr. MD Longhorn,
OK, what was (is) it that you want the call to be?

[DeputyUICHousto]

I'm reading too much into this or not thinking it through but...if a runner going from 1st to 2nd is hit with a fair batted ball do we get the runner closest to home out also?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm not sure if that's what Mike is hung up on, nor am I sure it has any bearing on this particular play. I guess the question boils down to this: Is this considered a fair batted ball hitting a batter-runner, or a fair batted ball blocked by an offensive team member?

Here's the thing ... I'm not hung up. I AGREE with the posts from Mike, Dave, Steve, you... The majority of that other board, including my own supervisor/scheduler from last year, insisted that there was 2 outs on this play.

I can slice this about 3 different ways, but always end up with 1 out.

1) BR is out when the ball gains "fair" status - which is exactly when it contacts him. So he's out on the IFF at the same moment he's struck by a batted ball, and out for that too. No logic requires a 2nd out here.
2) 8-2-I: I. When an infield fly is declared and the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner before reaching first base. EFFECT: The ball is dead and the infield fly is invoked.
3) If you (for whatever reason) insist that BR is out the instant IFF is called - then we have an offensive team member (retired runner) being struck by a batted ball - so all the plays about a runner being struck by a batted ball do not apply - this player is no longer a runner, and you can only use 8-7-P, which would only be an out if a play was available at the moment the ball struck the retired runner... which it's not.

The non-umpire peanut gallery where this was initially posted were nearly unanimous in their support of 2 outs... as were a slight majority of the umpires.

I feel better now that I (and Dave, who also posted there) are not insane. Or if we are, it's not because of this.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

3) If you (for whatever reason) insist that BR is out the instant IFF is called - then we have an offensive team member (retired runner) being struck by a batted ball - so all the plays about a runner being struck by a batted ball do not apply - this player is no longer a runner, and you can only use 8-7-P, which would only be an out if a play was available at the moment the ball struck the retired runner... which it's not.

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

In this case, near the line, the proper call is Infield Fly If Fair. Therefore she wouldn't been declared Out yet.

As far as I know, in the IFR the batter is out at the moment the ball is struck; as long as it turns out to be an IF and that includes being fair.
NFHS 8.2.9, NCAA 12.4.7 say "when she hits"

That would mean the out actually occurs before the "call" and before the fair/foul determination; so the B is already out before anything else happens.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As far as I know, in the IFR the batter is out at the moment the ball is struck; as long as it turns out to be an IF and that includes being fair.
NFHS 8.2.9, NCAA 12.4.7 say "when she hits"

That would mean the out actually occurs before the "call" and before the fair/foul determination; so the B is already out before anything else happens.

What does ASA Rule 8-2-I say?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What does ASA Rule 8-2-I say?

That the batter is out if struck by an infield fly.

I have not found "the batter is out" on an infield fly.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Hmmmm. Is the batter-runner really a viable batter-runner for rules purposes after she's been declared out do to the IFF? Or is she no longer a viable batter-runner once that declaration has been made?

In this case, near the line, the proper call is Infield Fly If Fair. Therefore she wouldn't been declared Out yet.