Softball Trivia

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by egj13

I am going to answer this with some words of wisdom from MD Longhorn himself when I found myself in his situation last week...cause after all I feel his frustration.

"In my experience, if 99% of the people are saying one thing, and one person is saying something different, it's the one that's wrong 99% of the time. If you find yourself thinking you're the only one on this board that knows something, I guarantee you that you're wrong" MD Longhorn

"But sure, you're right, and everyone else is wrong. Everyone. OK. Nice ego there" MD Longhorn

Serious though MD...I feel your frustration.

Well played sir. A minor difference though... the board where this was originally taken is mostly fans, coaches, parents, etc --- the actual umpires posting there were split about 60/40 (still against me, but not 99.9%). And what you quoted is EXACTLY the reason I posted it here... if everyone but me on THIS board said I was wrong, I would most likely be wrong.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

I'm reading too much into this or not thinking it through but...if a runner going from 1st to 2nd is hit with a fair batted ball do we get the runner closest to home out also?

Without delving into the rule books that I don't have handy, the only out recorded here is on the runner who was hit with the batted ball, unless you judge she did something to prevent a double play.

Outs on runners closest to home typically occur when a player who has already been put out interferes with a play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm not sure if that's what Mike is hung up on, nor am I sure it has any bearing on this particular play. I guess the question boils down to this: Is this considered a fair batted ball hitting a batter-runner, or a fair batted ball blocked by an offensive team member?

Here's the thing ... I'm not hung up. I AGREE with the posts from Mike, Dave, Steve, you... The majority of that other board, including my own supervisor/scheduler from last year, insisted that there was 2 outs on this play.

I can slice this about 3 different ways, but always end up with 1 out.

1) BR is out when the ball gains "fair" status - which is exactly when it contacts him. So he's out on the IFF at the same moment he's struck by a batted ball, and out for that too. No logic requires a 2nd out here.
2) 8-2-I: I. When an infield fly is declared and the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner before reaching first base. EFFECT: The ball is dead and the infield fly is invoked.
3) If you (for whatever reason) insist that BR is out the instant IFF is called - then we have an offensive team member (retired runner) being struck by a batted ball - so all the plays about a runner being struck by a batted ball do not apply - this player is no longer a runner, and you can only use 8-7-P, which would only be an out if a play was available at the moment the ball struck the retired runner... which it's not.

The non-umpire peanut gallery where this was initially posted were nearly unanimous in their support of 2 outs... as were a slight majority of the umpires.

I feel better now that I (and Dave, who also posted there) are not insane. Or if we are, it's not because of this.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

I'm reading too much into this or not thinking it through but...if a runner going from 1st to 2nd is hit with a fair batted ball do we get the runner closest to home out also?

Apples and oranges, man. Think through the basic rules about interference in softball (with one NCAA exception that tries to follow smallball logic) and who is out.

1) The person who interferes is always the person that is out. (Here is the NCAA exception that would only cloud this point).
2) If the person that interferes cannot be called out on interference, it is always (again, except one exception for the traditional "turning two in the middle" doubleplay) the runner closest to home that is out.

#2 exists to cover 1) offensive players that are already out (like on an IFF), 2) runners that have already scored, 3) offensive coaches, 4) on-deck batters, and 5) whatever idiot on the offensive team that left loose equipment on the field. There may be a type 6, but I can't think of one.

So, you are asking about a #1 interference penalty, when this thread is dealing with one form of #2 (NO, there isn't any such designation, just referring within this post for clarity.)

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Hmmmm. Is the batter-runner really a viable batter-runner for rules purposes after she's been declared out do to the IFF? Or is she no longer a viable batter-runner once that declaration has been made?

In this case, near the line, the proper call is Infield Fly If Fair. Therefore she wouldn't been declared Out yet.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

3) If you (for whatever reason) insist that BR is out the instant IFF is called - then we have an offensive team member (retired runner) being struck by a batted ball - so all the plays about a runner being struck by a batted ball do not apply - this player is no longer a runner, and you can only use 8-7-P, which would only be an out if a play was available at the moment the ball struck the retired runner... which it's not.

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

In this case, near the line, the proper call is Infield Fly If Fair. Therefore she wouldn't been declared Out yet.

As far as I know, in the IFR the batter is out at the moment the ball is struck; as long as it turns out to be an IF and that includes being fair.
NFHS 8.2.9, NCAA 12.4.7 say "when she hits"

That would mean the out actually occurs before the "call" and before the fair/foul determination; so the B is already out before anything else happens.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As far as I know, in the IFR the batter is out at the moment the ball is struck; as long as it turns out to be an IF and that includes being fair.
NFHS 8.2.9, NCAA 12.4.7 say "when she hits"

That would mean the out actually occurs before the "call" and before the fair/foul determination; so the B is already out before anything else happens.

What does ASA Rule 8-2-I say?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What does ASA Rule 8-2-I say?

That the batter is out if struck by an infield fly.

I have not found "the batter is out" on an infield fly.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

That the batter is out if struck by an infield fly.

I have not found "the batter is out" on an infield fly.

You don't need to. The batter is out. Ball is dead. There is NO other opportunity for an out. 1 out. Next batter.

[Tru_in_Blu]

The question of when the batter is out when she hits a ball that could be called an IF is when the status of the ball has been determined (fair or foul).

As mentioned in other posts, a ball could be hit in the infield where no one makes a play on it. It lands between 2B and the pitcher's plate and then spins foul between home and either 1B or 3B. At that point, the ball is foul, the batter is not out. So clearly, the batter is not out when the ball is struck or even when the umpire delcares an IF.

If a ball close to the 1B line hits the BR in fair territory, it's a dead ball and the BR is out.

If it was a super high fly ball and the runner from 3B was running on the pitch and touched home before the ball hit the BR, I think you score that run. Dissenters?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

If it was a super high fly ball and the runner from 3B was running on the pitch and touched home before the ball hit the BR, I think you score that run. Dissenters?

I hope the dissenters would be everybody. I'll ask again ... what does Rule 8-2-I say?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I hope the dissenters would be everybody. I'll ask again ... what does Rule 8-2-I say?

That's what I have been wondering, myself.... especially since Dave the exact rule a week ago!

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I hope the dissenters would be everybody. I'll ask again ... what does Rule 8-2-I say?

Just out of curiosity, when and why did 8-2-I change its wording? I have a PDF version of the 2008 rule book, and here's how 8-2-I was written back then:

"[Batter-runner is out] When an infield fly is declared. If the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner before reaching first base, the ball is dead and the infield fly is invoked."

The latest version of the rule runs both sentences together so that it reads,

"When an infield fly is declared and the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner before reaching first base."

Why the change? Heck, you could almost read it as saying that the ball HAS to hit the batter-runner to invoke the IFR!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Just out of curiosity, when and why did 8-2-I change its wording? I have a PDF version of the 2008 rule book, and here's how 8-2-I was written back then:

"[Batter-runner is out] When an infield fly is declared. If the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner before reaching first base, the ball is dead and the infield fly is invoked."

The latest version of the rule runs both sentences together so that it reads,

"When an infield fly is declared and the fair batted ball hits the batter-runner before reaching first base."

Why the change? Heck, you could almost read it as saying that the ball HAS to hit the batter-runner to invoke the IFR!

I see no quantitative difference between the first and the second, so I'm not seeing the issue. The latter is clearer, at least, and covers exactly the situation it's supposed to cover.

Regarding your last sentence, that's true. the ball HAS to hit the batter runner to invoke THIS rule. Luckily for all of us, there are many other parts to this rule to describe the other ways IFR might come into play.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I see no quantitative difference between the first and the second, so I'm not seeing the issue.

Exactly, which is why I don't understand the rationale behind the change.

The older version is just as clear to me, if not more so.