Odd Question re: Two Runners on One Base

[BretMan]

I had this question come up in a clinic recently and it generated some good discussion. It's an old play that still can throw you for a loop- just as it did one major league umpire in the playoffs a couple of years ago.

During a play, two runners wind up occupying the same base. Okay....I know which runner is liable to be tagged out (depending on if one is forced or not). No need to rehash that part of the rule.

Here is the "what if" scenario that almost always comes up...What if the defense doesn't tag either runner and they both just stand there on the base? Now what?

Of course, the first thing we as umpires would do is wait for something to happen- either a tag attempt or one of the runners advaning or retreating. But, what if...none of that happens. Both runners just stand there and the defense just stands there, with nobody making a play.

It would probably be a rare thing to happen. But someone, somewhere must have thought about it happening because it has been addressed. When the question came up, I remembered that ASA and NFHS have issued rulings on this.

The NFHS ruling says that, after it becomes apparent no play will be made, the umpire is to call time, then call out the appropriate runner. Easy enough.

The ASA case book ruling ofers a play where there are two active runners and they both end up at second base. They say that if no play is attempted, then call time and return the trailing runner to first base.

Here is my own "what if"...for ASA, what if the base(s) behind the trailing runner are all occupied? That is, what if the lead runner is forced? You can't send the trailing runner back then, can you? The ASA case play doesn't really cover that.

In this case, does ASA expect us to send the lead runner forward?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Here is my own "what if"...for ASA, what if the base(s) behind the trailing runner are all occupied? That is, what if the lead runner is forced? You can't send the trailing runner back then, can you? The ASA case play doesn't really cover that.

That is because this is already a TWP - and the only way it can be imagined is if R2 on first (or BR) steals (or continues past) 2nd but R1 on 2nd doesn't go anywhere.

You've turned this into a FWP. How would you envision this play happening? R1 from 2nd simply refuses to advance on a walk? R1 from 2nd refuses to run to third on a single? This makes no reasonable sense. Any defense is going to throw that ball to third (or home if bases are loaded) for the easy out.

If defense can't or won't do that, I suppose the only logical thing is to advance the runner - I'm certainly not going to give defense an out when they refused to take it when it was this easy.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I had this question come up in a clinic recently and it generated some good discussion. It's an old play that still can throw you for a loop- just as it did one major league umpire in the playoffs a couple of years ago.

During a play, two runners wind up occupying the same base. Okay....I know which runner is liable to be tagged out (depending on if one is forced or not). No need to rehash that part of the rule.

Here is the "what if" scenario that almost always comes up...What if the defense doesn't tag either runner and they both just stand there on the base? Now what?

Of course, the first thing we as umpires would do is wait for something to happen- either a tag attempt or one of the runners advaning or retreating. But, what if...none of that happens. Both runners just stand there and the defense just stands there, with nobody making a play.

It would probably be a rare thing to happen. But someone, somewhere must have thought about it happening because it has been addressed. When the question came up, I remembered that ASA and NFHS have issued rulings on this.

The NFHS ruling says that, after it becomes apparent no play will be made, the umpire is to call time, then call out the appropriate runner. Easy enough.

The ASA case book ruling ofers a play where there are two active runners and they both end up at second base. They say that if no play is attempted, then call time and return the trailing runner to first base.

Here is my own "what if"...for ASA, what if the base(s) behind the trailing runner are all occupied? That is, what if the lead runner is forced? You can't send the trailing runner back then, can you? The ASA case play doesn't really cover that.

In this case, does ASA expect us to send the lead runner forward?

Yes, just as you would an OBS runner entitled to a base which is occupied.

If the defense doesn't make a play, what are you going to do, tell them to make the play?

Meanwhile, you cannot force the runner to violate the LBR.

[CecilOne]

Here is my own "what if"...for ASA, what if the base(s) behind the trailing runner are all occupied? That is, what if the lead runner is forced? You can't send the trailing runner back then, can you? The ASA case play doesn't really cover that.

In this case, does ASA expect us to send the lead runner forward?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yes, just as you would an OBS runner entitled to a base which is occupied.

If the defense doesn't make a play, what are you going to do, tell them to make the play?

Meanwhile, you cannot force the runner to violate the LBR.

You seem to be saying to do this as a dead ball procedure. Correct?

[x-tremeump]

Sometimes you need to step out of your comfort zone and make something happen. There is a never say never application here.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Here is my own "what if"...for ASA, what if the base(s) behind the trailing runner are all occupied? That is, what if the lead runner is forced? You can't send the trailing runner back then, can you? The ASA case play doesn't really cover that.

In this case, does ASA expect us to send the lead runner forward?



You seem to be saying to do this as a dead ball procedure. Correct?

It would have to be dead to award bases.

Example: 1st & 2nd, less than two outs.

Soft line drive to F4, R1 off with the pitch, R2 gets tangled up with F3.
Thinking the ball will be caught, 3B coach waves R1 back to 2B. F4 knocks the ball to the ground and tags the OBS R2.

Now, you have a dead ball, with runners on 1, 1.5 & 2 base By rule, R2 cannot be ruled out between the bases where obstructed and you have to put the .5 on a base