NCAA assisting batter-runner after missing home plate.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Am I correct that there is no penalty for team mates or coaches assiting a batter runner after she missed home plate on an out if the park home run?
I'm looking at 12-9.5 & 9-5.3

While not the exact same sitch (no out of the park HR involved), I think Dee Abrahamson's interpretation of the following question (Ask Dee 4/27/12-Pg.55) addresses the question asked in the OP:

12.9.5
BASE RUNNER IS OUT

Question as posed to Dee-
This true-false question was presented at our meeting:
The base runner from third base scores (lead runner) and the base runner from second base (trailing runner) follows her but misses home plate on her slide. The umpire calls "No Tag" and gives the safe sign. The lead runner helps the trailing runner get to her feet. She touches the plate before the tag and is ruled safe. The answer was False. I contend that the trailing runner is not a runner anymore because she is considered safe until the appeal.

Dee's Interpretation-
She is out under 12.9.5
The trailing runner knows she missed home plate so she is headed back to tag it. The catcher has heard the umpire declare "no tag" and is attempting to tag the trailing runner before she can score. But before the play finishes, the trailing runner is illegally contacted by a teammate. When the defense appeals that the base runner missed the base and then was assisted by a base runner who had already scored, she will be declared out under 12.9.5.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

While not the exact same sitch (no out of the park HR involved), I think Dee Abrahamson's interpretation of the following question (Ask Dee 4/27/12-Pg.55) addresses the question asked in the OP:

12.9.5
BASE RUNNER IS OUT

Question as posed to Dee-
This true-false question was presented at our meeting:
The base runner from third base scores (lead runner) and the base runner from second base (trailing runner) follows her but misses home plate on her slide. The umpire calls "No Tag" and gives the safe sign. The lead runner helps the trailing runner get to her feet. She touches the plate before the tag and is ruled safe. The answer was False. I contend that the trailing runner is not a runner anymore because she is considered safe until the appeal.

Dee's Interpretation-
She is out under 12.9.5
The trailing runner knows she missed home plate so she is headed back to tag it. The catcher has heard the umpire declare "no tag" and is attempting to tag the trailing runner before she can score. But before the play finishes, the trailing runner is illegally contacted by a teammate. When the defense appeals that the base runner missed the base and then was assisted by a base runner who had already scored, she will be declared out under 12.9.5.

Why is the umpire declaring "no tag"? There is no indication there was a play at any time prior to a possible appeal.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why is the umpire declaring "no tag"? There is no indication there was a play at any time prior to a possible appeal.

Guessing NCAA wants umpires to announce that an appeal is possible.

See for example 7.1.1.2.5(a).


This is the same organization that wants their plate umpires to signal safe on a dropped third strike and announce "no catch".

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

Guessing NCAA wants umpires to announce that an appeal is possible.

See for example 7.1.1.2.5(a).


This is the same organization that wants their plate umpires to signal safe on a dropped third strike and announce "no catch".

Though it didn't explicitly say so, the implication was that there was an actual play at the plate, the tag was missed and the runner missed the base.

[EsqUmp]

9.5.3 really has nothing to do with physically assisting a runner. It is intended to prevent a gathering around home plate whereby the defense and the umpires can't even see the runner cross the plate. That's why it is under rule 9 - Defense. Note: This rule doesn't even apply to base coaches or base runners.

[shagpal]

I know a D1 umpire who called the BR out for this very reason (teammates high fiving at home plate prior to touching home) without any prior warning issued on an over the fence HR. That was in a HS playoff game. It was a game tying run turned into an out that cost the team the game. That umpire is still calling D1 ball.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

9.5.3 really has nothing to do with physically assisting a runner. It is intended to prevent a gathering around home plate whereby the defense and the umpires can't even see the runner cross the plate. That's why it is under rule 9 - Defense. Note: This rule doesn't even apply to base coaches or base runners.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by shagpal

I know a D1 umpired who called the BR out for this very reason (teammates high fiving at home plate prior to touching home) without any prior warning issued on an over the fence HR. That was in a HS playoff game.
-snip-
That umpire is still calling D1 ball.

Still calling D1???
I'm surprised that umpire is still calling JV games. LOL

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by shagpal

I know a D1 umpired who called the BR out for this very reason (teammates high fiving at home plate prior to touching home) without any prior warning issued on an over the fence HR. That was in a HS playoff game. It was a game tying run turned into an out that cost the team the game. That umpire is still calling D1 ball.

Is the Fed rule on this the same as NCAA 9.5.3?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

I know a D1 umpire who called the BR out for this very reason (teammates high fiving at home plate prior to touching home) without any prior warning issued on an over the fence HR. That was in a HS playoff game. It was a game tying run turned into an out that cost the team the game. That umpire is still calling D1 ball.

I believe the "no contact" rule is absolutely ridiculous.

It is applying a game-effect ruling on an action that has no affect on the game.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

9.5.3 really has nothing to do with physically assisting a runner. It is intended to prevent a gathering around home plate whereby the defense and the umpires can't even see the runner cross the plate. That's why it is under rule 9 - Defense. Note: This rule doesn't even apply to base coaches or base runners.

FWIW, I'm aware that 9.5.3 was not applicable (for the reason you mentioned). I just mentioned it to make sure no one mistakenly tried to apply it.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

This is the same organization that wants their plate umpires to signal safe on a dropped third strike and announce "no catch".

And your point is...?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why is the umpire declaring "no tag"? There is no indication there was a play at any time prior to a possible appeal.

Good catch.
There is no mention of a tag by F2 in the question the umpire submitted.
In her answer, Dee makes the assumption that there was a tag.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why is the umpire declaring "no tag"? There is no indication there was a play at any time prior to a possible appeal.

The fact that there was a slide is a big clue to me that there was a play... and the fact that the umpire said no tag is a bigger clue.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

While not the exact same sitch (no out of the park HR involved), I think Dee Abrahamson's interpretation of the following question (Ask Dee 4/27/12-Pg.55) addresses the question asked in the OP:

12.9.5
BASE RUNNER IS OUT

Question as posed to Dee-
This true-false question was presented at our meeting:
The base runner from third base scores (lead runner) and the base runner from second base (trailing runner) follows her but misses home plate on her slide. The umpire calls "No Tag" and gives the safe sign. The lead runner helps the trailing runner get to her feet. She touches the plate before the tag and is ruled safe. The answer was False. I contend that the trailing runner is not a runner anymore because she is considered safe until the appeal.

Dee's Interpretation-
She is out under 12.9.5
The trailing runner knows she missed home plate so she is headed back to tag it. The catcher has heard the umpire declare "no tag" and is attempting to tag the trailing runner before she can score. But before the play finishes, the trailing runner is illegally contacted by a teammate. When the defense appeals that the base runner missed the base and then was assisted by a base runner who had already scored, she will be declared out under 12.9.5.

Then maybe I am not correct.
As mentioned earlier, true 9.5.3 has nothing to do with the play.
I was looking at the part of 12.9.5 that refers to "actively running the bases and the ball is in play"
I guess, because she missed home, Dee is saying that she is still "actively running the bases" I was thinking that since she "passed" home and is assumed to have touched it unless appealed, she might no longer be considered actively running the bases.... Is she saying that since the offense recognized that she missed the base and acted on it, she is "reactivated"......
I guess I could buy that, but then what do you do if she actually DID touch home, but someone thought she didn't and pushed her and she went back to touch the plate?

And the other part (that wasn't answered in Dee's answer) was the fact that the ball wasn't in play....
In fact a similar question might come up if she missed any base on a home rune and was physically assisted back (by a non-active runner).