Discarded "mask"

[DRJ1960]

NFHS

B1 hits ground ball to F5. F3 removes and discards her "infielders face mask".
F5's throw strikes the mask as it lays on the ground. F3 is able to retrive the ball and prevent B1 from advancing past 1st base.

Do you award any bases?

B1 hits pop up. F3 tosses mask. F3 whiffs on the catch and the ball strikes her discarded mask. B1 unable to advance past 1st.

Do you award any bases?

[RKBUmp]

5-1-1-G dead ball table doesnt seem to differentiate between a thrown ball or a batted ball. #34 simply says for ball hitting equipment of team on defense. Dead ball, all runners advance 2 bases.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

5-1-1-G dead ball table doesnt seem to differentiate between a thrown ball or a batted ball. #34 simply says for ball hitting equipment of team on defense. Dead ball, all runners advance 2 bases.

So, a ball hitting a catcher's mask is a 2-base award?

[RKBUmp]

I have always been instructed catchers helmets and bats are considered part of the field once they are stationary on the field. However, so far I can find nowhere in the FED rules where it specifically states this unlike the NCAA rules where it lists catchers helmets, batters bat and runners helmets that may have inadvertantly come off.

There is mention of defensive facemasks in the FED rules with regard to obstruction. If a runner trips over, or is forced to go around a discarded defensive facemask it should be ruled obstruction.

[Crabby_Bob]

NFHS 1-8-3 Loose equipment of the teams may not be on or near the field. A discarded bat by the batter or the catcher's mask and helmet are not examples of loose equipment. They [sic] are considered part of the playing field.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

NFHS 1-8-3 Loose equipment of the teams may not be on or near the field. A discarded bat by the batter or the catcher's mask and helmet are not examples of loose equipment. They [sic] are considered part of the playing field.

I must have looked through the definitions 10 times last night and read over that every time. I knew it had to be in there somewhere.

[Tex]

The infielder's mask is considered loose equipment as Crabby Bob stated, but can cause obstruction as RKBUmp stated.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I believe standing on a specific list could lead to all sorts of issues. If a runner's batting glove falls out of her pocket and the ball hits it, what are you going to do there? How about if a player loses a shoe, etc.?

[bluejay]

I guess it would be good to know the proper rule for the face mask on the ground but what percent of fielders actually wear a mask and how often do they throw it down? Just curious because I have never seen it or heard of it. Also, although the rule only mentions a catcher's mask, what would be the difference?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by bluejay

I guess it would be good to know the proper rule for the face mask on the ground but what percent of fielders actually wear a mask and how often do they throw it down? Just curious because I have never seen it or heard of it. Also, although the rule only mentions a catcher's mask, what would be the difference?

To your first question, it really doesn't matter how often we see a fielder wear a mask and then remove it and throw it down. The fact is that it could happen, and the rules as written aren't very clear on how to handle it except for when it obstructs a runner.

What I find telling is that the NFHS casebook does specifically cover removed defensive players' facemasks in a caseplay, 1.8.4.A. And since rule 1-8-3 says only bats and catcher's masks are exempt from the loose equipment definition, then you could argue that NFHS treats those facemasks--as well as batter's helmets, loose shoes, loose hats, etc. etc.--as loose equipment for all intents and purposes.

I guess there's a reasonable expectation that a player isn't going to lose her facemask or batting helmet or hat or shoe or batting glove through the normal course of play. Only bats and catcher's helmets are exempt because they are always discarded.

[DRJ1960]

Does the fact that NFHS uses different terms ("loose equipment" vs "discarded equipment") impact your call?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

Does the fact that NFHS uses different terms ("loose equipment" vs "discarded equipment") impact your call?

Nope. To me, loose equipment is any equipment that is not in its proper place. It could've been detatched, discarded, removed, fallen off, blown off by the wind, whatever.

Would you rule obstuction if a runner was hindered by a discarded catcher's mask?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

Does the fact that NFHS uses different terms ("loose equipment" vs "discarded equipment") impact your call?

Yes. Loose equipment is an item not currently involved in the game, but left on the field; contact with the ball should always result in a blocked ball, any judgment of possible obstruction or interference should be strictly enforced.

Discarded equipment is something involved in the game that is normally expected to become part of the field (catcher's mask, batter's bat), or might accidently become loose (cap falls off while running, batting glove falls out of pocket) and contact can be ignored if not deemed interference or obstruction.

Detached equipment is something intentionally used improperly to impact on a play, and should always result in the minimum three base award.

Interestingly (or more likely considered overkill), NCAA insists that umpires make all participants (runners and defensive players) put all batting gloves FULLY in pockets, even fingertips cannot hang out, to make sure they don't impact on a play or result in a blocked ball ruling.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Yes. Loose equipment is an item not currently involved in the game, but left on the field; contact with the ball should always result in a blocked ball, any judgment of possible obstruction or interference should be strictly enforced.

Discarded equipment is something involved in the game that is normally expected to become part of the field (catcher's mask, batter's bat), or might accidently become loose (cap falls off while running, batting glove falls out of pocket) and contact can be ignored if not deemed interference or obstruction.

Detached equipment is something intentionally used improperly to impact on a play, and should always result in the minimum three base award.

Interestingly (or more likely considered overkill), NCAA insists that umpires make all participants (runners and defensive players) put all batting gloves FULLY in pockets, even fingertips cannot hang out, to make sure they don't impact on a play or result in a blocked ball ruling.

Hmmm, interesting. That's not clearly stated in either the rule book or case book. Is there some other authoritative NFHS document that covers this, or perhaps an official interpretation on its website?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Hmmm, interesting. That's not clearly stated in either the rule book or case book. Is there some other authoritative NFHS document that covers this, or perhaps an official interpretation on its website?

Compilation of various citations, including (and probably missing a few):

2-2-3
5-1-2b
Dead ball table #33, #34
Delayed dead ball table #4
8-4-3e and Penalty
8-4-3f Penalty and Exception 3
8-6-15 Penalty