Trivia 4

[SAump]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

?? You lost me here. What post were you replying to?

Not replying to any particular post. My NCAA rule 5, section 6 is the MLB 4.09 equivalent to how a team scores?
Actually trying to justify three outs and no run. Only see three outs and a run here.

Note
ASA 8-7-Y declares each runner out. Does run count? NCAA rule declares each runner out and wipes off that run.
Third out was not BR, not force out, and not appeal on preceding runner. What did I miss?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Absent an interpretation/AR from OKC, as currently written I can't see how.

There you lost me. Where in this rule (conspicuously absent is "immediately" or "before the next play") do you see how you CAN'T enforce the rule in this case absent an interpretation from OKC?

I would use the same timing as NCAA; as long as even one is on base, that one is illegally there, if both, I get both. If appealed before a next pitch to erase an illegally located runner that just scored, I'm getting them both.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

There you lost me. Where in this rule (conspicuously absent is "immediately" or "before the next play") do you see how you CAN'T enforce the rule in this case absent an interpretation from OKC?

I would use the same timing as NCAA; as long as even one is on base, that one is illegally there, if both, I get both. If appealed before a next pitch to erase an illegally located runner that just scored, I'm getting them both.

Note: Though it can be brought to the attention to the umpire by the offended team, that is not noted as a prerequisite to enforce this rule.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

But the offense attempted to cheat.

They did cheat and you caught them. Enforce the penalty.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

There you lost me. Where in this rule (conspicuously absent is "immediately" or "before the next play") do you see how you CAN'T enforce the rule in this case absent an interpretation from OKC?

I would use the same timing as NCAA; as long as even one is on base, that one is illegally there, if both, I get both. If appealed before a next pitch to erase an illegally located runner that just scored, I'm getting them both.

OK.....I can see your point there, no disagreement,

Honestly though, until MD started this thread, I never gave any thought to having to enforce 8.7.Y. after an intervening play. Using the NCAA timing works for me, but IMO 8.7.Y, as written, could still use a 'little more meat on it's bones'. It would make life simpler should MD's sitch occur in a game we're working.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

They did cheat and you caught them. Enforce the penalty.

I never said don't.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by SAump

Not replying to any particular post. My NCAA rule 5, section 6 is the MLB 4.09 equivalent to how a team scores?
Actually trying to justify three outs and no run. Only see three outs and a run here.

Note
ASA 8-7-Y declares each runner out. Does run count? NCAA rule declares each runner out and wipes off that run.
Third out was not BR, not force out, and not appeal on preceding runner. What did I miss?

How old is your NCAA rule book? Again, you're referencing a rule that has nothing to do with the topic. In the current (2012-2013) NCCA Softball rule book 5.6 is Lineups. Bringing in a MLB rule reference to support a softball interpretation accomplishes nothing.
NCAA AR 12.10 is what you missed.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

How old is your NCAA rule book? Again, you're referencing a rule that has nothing to do with the topic. In the current (2012-2013) NCCA Softball rule book 5.6 is Lineups. Bringing in a MLB rule reference to support a softball interpretation accomplishes nothing.
NCAA AR 12.10 is what you missed.

Your right. ASA 5-5-B Scoring of Runs and NCAA rule 6, section 1 should have been annotated to disallow the run.

I should have asked if the Substitute/Illegal Player rule wipes off that run?

From ASA pg 75.
d. If the player is in the game illegally as a runner and it is brought to the attention of the umpire before the next legal or illegal pitch has been thrown or a play made, this is a correctable situation.
e. If the player is in the game illegally as a runner and is discovered after a legal or illegal pitch has been thrown or a play made, the player is disqualified and replaced on the base. Any advance of the runner(s) is legal.
From ASA pg 116.
Y. When, following an offensive conference, base runners switch positions on the bases they occupied.
EFFECT: Each runner on an improper base shall be declared out. In addition, the head coach shall be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by SAump

Your right. ASA 5-5-B Scoring of Runs should have been annotated.

I should have asked if the Substitute/Illegal Player rule wipes off that run?

The sitch in the OP had neither a substitute or an illegal player involved in the play.

The accepted practice is to cite a rule by number & section, not by page number. Page numbers can change from year to year in any organization's rule book. Rule numbers stay constant. It makes it easier to anyone reading your post to follow the point you're trying to make.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

NCAA rule (notice the AR):


ASA and NFHS rules are similar (I don't have my books at work), however I'm unsure about how long you get to appeal. NCAA allows you until the end of the half inning, as long as a runner is on base.

Therefore, NCAA ruling is 3 outs, end of inning and no run, and 3 ejections.

It wouldn't seem “fair” to call B4 out and return R1 to third base.

B4 is out and R1 scores, and R2 and R3 are declared out. Three outs.
B4 returns to bat, R1 returns to 3B, and R2 and R3 are declared out. Two outs.


NFHS SITUATION 6: R1 is at third base and R2 is at first base with no outs. B3, an illegal offensive player, hits the ball to F6, an illegal defensive player, who turns a 6-4-3 double play. R1 crosses the plate. At the end of playing action, before the next pitch, both coaches come out and appeal the opponent’s illegal player. COMMENT: Since this situation is unlikely to occur, there is no specific rule/penalty to address it; therefore, the umpire must make a decision as in 10-2-3g. The most likely rulings would appear to advantage one team over the other and it is impossible to invoke penalties that are completely “offsetting.” There-fore, one possible “hybrid” ruling is presented for consideration. ONE POSSIBLE RULING: Since both teams violated the illegal substitute rule and the violations were discovered before the next pitch, the umpire shall restrict both the illegal offensive and defensive players to the bench/dugout for the remainder of the game with legal substitutes replacing them. It would seem “fair” to call B3 out and return both R1 and R2 to third base and first base, respectively. The game would continue with one out and the player following the illegal batter as the next batter. This penalty incorporates portions from the two individual penalties. (2-57-3; 3-4-2 Penalty; 3-4-3 Penalty; 10-2-3g)

NCAA 6.8 Delayed Dead Ball. (Affects 12.20 also.)
New 6.8.6 Base runner leaving a base prior to release of the pitch.
Rationale: Changes the effect from immediate dead ball to delayed dead ball in order to
advantage the defense.
12.20 Leading Off Base.
EFFECT—The ball is dead, “No Pitch” is declared, and the offending base runner(s) is out.
Each other base runner must return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch. Delayed
dead ball is signaled. At the conclusion of the play, the coach of the defensive team shall have
the option of taking the result of the play or “No Pitch” is declared and the batter is returned to
the batter’s box. In addition, the offending base runner(s) is out, each other base runner must
return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.
Rationale: Allows the offended team to choose whether or not to take the results of the play or
the traditional result for leaving a base early.

[RKBUmp]

Which of those rules clarifications have anything to do with the OP? We are not dealing with an illegal player or a runner leaving a base early.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Which of those rules clarifications have anything to do with the OP? We are not dealing with an illegal player or a runner leaving a base early.

Section 6. A RUNNER MUST RETURN TO THEIR BASE.
I. After leaving a base for a conference.

Delete 8-7-Y

There, I fixed it. 10-2-3g.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by SAump

Section 6. A RUNNER MUST RETURN TO THEIR BASE.
I. After leaving a base for a conference.

Delete 8-7-Y

There, I fixed it. 10-2-3g.

Section 6 of what rule number and what rule set?

10-2-3-g. ??? Again, what rule set? I doubt that it's ASA as Rule 10 is Umpires,
can't be NCAA as their Rule 10 covers Pitching. I don't work Fed so perhaps that's the rule set that's being referenced????

Please enlighten us.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Section 6 of what rule number and what rule set?

10-2-3-g. ??? Again, what rule set? I doubt that it's ASA as Rule 10 is Umpires,
can't be NCAA as their Rule 10 covers Pitching. I don't work Fed so perhaps that's the rule set that's being referenced????

Please enlighten us.

ASA 8-6 already exists, however, 8-6-I DOES NOT EXIST.
I made it up, per FED 10-2-3-g in 2012 rule interpretation 6 above.

OP
Bases loaded no outs,
Coach calls conference, base runners switch.
Before pitch, R3 two out, 3 ejections.
After pitch, Sac Fly, 3 out, no run, 3 ejections.

No college coach would employ such a strategy.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SAump

NFHS SITUATION 6:
NCAA 6.8 Delayed Dead Ball. (Affects 12.20 also.)

You forgot to include the equally relevant:
ASA 4.2.B - Teams using a physically challenged player on offense and defense must have 11 players.

AND

NCAA Mens Lacrosse: 4.2 AR#1 - At the center lineup at the beginning of the game, should officials inspect equipment? Ruling: No.