OBS or Tag Up

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I would not go inside on this particular play unless I noticed my partner staying at home (he shouldn't, but it could happen). It makes your tag-up angle at 2nd worse, and takes BR completely out of your vision. If you're at B, and take a few steps toward 2nd (toward whatever angle on the catch and 2nd base you feel is ideal for you), you can glance at 1st base for the touch and possible OBS. Obviously, if BR's approach of first base coincides with the catch, you aren't going to get it except for VERY peripherally (and maybe not even that), but at least you're in the best spot for the tag AND for possibly checking 1st base.

The ASA standard mechanic works very well in this situation as described in the OP for multiple reasons. First and foremost, it is the standard mechanic, and without standardization where would we be?

Ok, let's break this down and talk about angles. What do we need to see? I think we can agree in order of importance - a) R2, b) the ball (which is on the line in the OP), c) BR. Can we take a position either inside OR outside that will allow this? YES - you need to open your hips wide and get a bit deeper into the infield when inside. However, think about the most likely "next" plays. Inside or outside will be ok for the BR into 2nd or back to 1st, but if the BR goes to 3rd, outside isn't good at all. Even if you keep up with her, you have the ball coming over your shoulder. Therefore, you can be 3 out of 3 covered or 2 out of 3 covered. And the later works for aging rock stars only.

In a conversation with an ASA higher (highest?) up this summer, the inside/outside conundrum was discussed. He basically said that inside or outside you will give you the same look AND at times be in a throwing lane (I've got a real good poker face-how could I not with my screen name?-but I know he saw my jaw drop to that statement). However, the next statement was the best selling point for ASA mechanics: the ASA wants you inside because it is where other umpires expect you to be. So now we are back to my first and foremost point. The standard mechanic is applicable in this OP.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I don't see how outside makes the tag up angle worse, especially coming from left side.
To me, getting inside, facing 2nd with 1st and left field seen peripherally would cover all and not be in any throwing lane.

I said inside makes the tag up angle worse...
Being inside facing 2nd (unless you back up almost to the circle), you can't see both the catch on the LF line and anything at first (assuming your eyeballs are not in your ears. ) Besides, if possible, you don't want a peripheral angle on the first touch by LF... you'd like that in your direct background as you're watching the touch (or the touch in your foreground as you see the first touch by LF).

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I said inside makes the tag up angle worse...
Being inside facing 2nd (unless you back up almost to the circle), you can't see both the catch on the LF line and anything at first (assuming your eyeballs are not in your ears. ) Besides, if possible, you don't want a peripheral angle on the first touch by LF... you'd like that in your direct background as you're watching the touch (or the touch in your foreground as you see the first touch by LF).

My mistype (again!), obviously "INSIDE worse" is what I was disagreeing with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
I don't see how INSIDE makes the tag up angle worse, especially coming from left side.
To me, getting inside, facing 2nd with 1st and left field seen peripherally would cover all and not be in any throwing lane.

How do you see the LF touch at alll when outside (yes meant outside this time)?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Ok, let's break this down and talk about angles. What do we need to see? I think we can agree in order of importance - a) R2, b) the ball (which is on the line in the OP), c) BR. Can we take a position either inside OR outside that will allow this? YES - you need to open your hips wide and get a bit deeper into the infield when inside. However, think about the most likely "next" plays. Inside or outside will be ok for the BR into 2nd or back to 1st, but if the BR goes to 3rd, outside isn't good at all. Even if you keep up with her, you have the ball coming over your shoulder.

You had me until this last statement. I can't see what play will have the ball coming over the shoulder - remember, I was saying you should be between B and 2nd base. The ball's in left field.

And regarding BR going to third, keep in mind, I'm not advocating growing roots and standing outside motionless. Remember, we're talking about a fly to left near the line. The play of BR to third is highly unlikely, and if it does develop, we have had plenty of time to adjust. Assuming PU came up the line as we agreed he should, he's likely got R2 at 3rd. I'm behind R2, but significantly ahead of BR. Once BR passes me, and assuming no play at 2nd, I'm already moving behind her further inside - and am now likely exactly where you advocate starting on this play.

I see no disadvantage in any possible play being outside on this play, and you have the large advantage of the very best look at the catch in LF and the runner on 2nd - coupled with a decent vantagepoint for actions at or around 1st base. Whereas starting inside you have an inferior view of the catch and 2nd base at the same time, and nearly NO view of actions at first base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

How do you see the LF touch at alll when outside (yes meant outside this time)?

I said to be between B and 2nd base. Ideally nearly lining up 2nd base with that catch in LF.

As general clarification ... if you can't get to that spot (bad knees, old knees, or too low of a fly to get there), then the spot everyone else is advocating is where you want to be. I'm just trying to say outside (on the B side of 2nd) is better on THIS play.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I said to be between B and 2nd base. Ideally nearly lining up 2nd base with that catch in LF.

As general clarification ... if you can't get to that spot (bad knees, old knees, or too low of a fly to get there), then the spot everyone else is advocating is where you want to be. I'm just trying to say outside (on the B side of 2nd) is better on THIS play.

This one is starting to make sense to me now...

At a minimum it eliminates having 1B behind you, and can put everything in front of you. Of course, you need a wide-angle lens.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You had me until this last statement. I can't see what play will have the ball coming over the shoulder - remember, I was saying you should be between B and 2nd base. The ball's in left field.

And regarding BR going to third, keep in mind, I'm not advocating growing roots and standing outside motionless. Remember, we're talking about a fly to left near the line. The play of BR to third is highly unlikely, and if it does develop, we have had plenty of time to adjust. Assuming PU came up the line as we agreed he should, he's likely got R2 at 3rd. I'm behind R2, but significantly ahead of BR. Once BR passes me, and assuming no play at 2nd, I'm already moving behind her further inside - and am now likely exactly where you advocate starting on this play.

I see no disadvantage in any possible play being outside on this play, and you have the large advantage of the very best look at the catch in LF and the runner on 2nd - coupled with a decent vantagepoint for actions at or around 1st base. Whereas starting inside you have an inferior view of the catch and 2nd base at the same time, and nearly NO view of actions at first base.

There comes a time when the players are faster than you. Maybe not "straight line" speed, but speed around the bases. You have to move efficiently to get the best angle/distance. And work in priority.
If you are outside (and once again, NO softball organization designates locations on the field as A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.) between 1st and 2nd, and the BR busts for a triple, and you let her pass, you will be behind the play, and straight line the tag. It isn't a very efficient movement. Maybe the standard mechanic was develop with efficiency in mind?

The way to cover this play is as stated. There are more advantages inside than outside. And trust me, I'm a big advocate of staying outside (there are time as U1 in and NCAA 3-umpire where I'm never inside). Regardless, it is the standard mechanic for ASA/NFHS games. If you believe something else is better, lobby to change the manual; freelancing is not an option. When I instruct at clinics (multiple levels under multiple codes), I'm constantly referring to mechanics manuals. If this OP happened in a college game, my decisions may be different (but for this play, most likely not, reading more of what the BR is doing). But the OP referenced ASA; this is the ASA answer (as well as Fed).

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I said to be between B and 2nd base. Ideally nearly lining up 2nd base with that catch in LF.

As general clarification ... if you can't get to that spot (bad knees, old knees, or too low of a fly to get there), then the spot everyone else is advocating is where you want to be. I'm just trying to say outside (on the B side of 2nd) is better on THIS play.

Oh, you are saying move from "C" across behind 2nd instead of into the diamond.
Didn't get that earlier and now I get the view of the catch, but still harder to see 1st or cover 3rd if needed.
OK, but non-standard and probably confusing/distracting to the PU.

p.s. No mobility problem here.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

There comes a time when the players are faster than you. Maybe not "straight line" speed, but speed around the bases. You have to move efficiently to get the best angle/distance. And work in priority.

I agree with you.

(and once again, NO softball organization designates locations on the field as A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.)

We are all aware of this here - but the shorthand is common enough and completely understood. I'd stop bothering with this nit, tbh. Does you no good to keep reminding us of this, and the designations help us communicate and understand each other.

If you are outside between 1st and 2nd, and the BR busts for a triple, and you let her pass, you will be behind the play, and straight line the tag. It isn't a very efficient movement. Maybe the standard mechanic was develop with efficiency in mind?

This play is from LEFT field - how am I straight-lining the tag... and further, if I'm moving to the center (between pitcher's plate and 2nd) as she's passing me, I'm moving to the very same place you're advocating in the first place - the angle on both of these is identical. I recognize I may eventually not have the speed to keep up - but I rarely have an issue keeping up with a runner, and the distance we need to go is less than that they need to go.

The way to cover this play is as stated. There are more advantages inside than outside. And trust me, I'm a big advocate of staying outside (there are time as U1 in and NCAA 3-umpire where I'm never inside). Regardless, it is the standard mechanic for ASA/NFHS games. If you believe something else is better, lobby to change the manual; freelancing is not an option. When I instruct at clinics (multiple levels under multiple codes), I'm constantly referring to mechanics manuals. If this OP happened in a college game, my decisions may be different (but for this play, most likely not, reading more of what the BR is doing). But the OP referenced ASA; this is the ASA answer (as well as Fed).

I hear you. BTW, you have called this "standard." One of the keys to good mechanics is adapting to the situation. The "standards", generally, are helpful but don't answer every situation perfectly and to be honest, I'm having trouble finding a play similar to the OP in my manual. If this is standard, can you tell me what page to look at? IOW - what page should I be lobbying to change?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I hear you. BTW, you have called this "standard." One of the keys to good mechanics is adapting to the situation. The "standards", generally, are helpful but don't answer every situation perfectly and to be honest, I'm having trouble finding a play similar to the OP in my manual. If this is standard, can you tell me what page to look at? IOW - what page should I be lobbying to change?

The "standards" give you a base. They put you in a good position for most of the routine and some not routine plays. However, there is absolutely nothing that demands you stand on a certain spot to make a call. For that matter, deviation to accommodate a needed adjustment to make the call is encouraged as long as any necessary communications with their partner.

The "standards" can allow a crew of strangers to step on the field and know exactly where each umpire is going to be and what they are covering on the play without going into a detail pregame clinic

[DaveASA/FED]

I think I am going to do what at least one of you listed. I am going inside to lineup 2B and the possible catch in LF, but I am also going to go a little deeper to open an angle with 1B and I will use the old saying "keep your head on a swivel" and be looking back and forth between 1B and LF (2B and R2 will always be in my view while doing this).

As many of you have said the tag up at 2B is #1 priority, but when will that happen or not happen? When the ball is caught or not caught right? So does it do us any good to stand there with our right eye on 2B and our left eye on LF when the ball is 10' in the air 15-20' away from the leftfielder? Why can't we get inside and glance at LF see there is time then look at 1B, look back at LF then if there is still time look back at 1B? Agreed there will be a point when you have to focus on LF (with 2B still in sight) and will miss things behind you at 1B, and that is when you use the comments listed above 'sorry coach but with 2 umpires that is all I could cover I tried to keep an eye on 1B but had to be focused on LF to see the timing for R2 to tag up and that must have been when the OBS happened, I can't call what I didn't see'. But by going a little deeper inside it makes you able to see more which then takes less of a head movement to see 1B then back to LF, doing that along with reading the play and recognizing you have time to look at 1B then back to see the play in LF will help reduce the amount of 'stuff' you miss at 1B.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

(snip)
that is when you use the comments listed above 'sorry coach but with 2 umpires that is all I could cover ...., I can't call what I didn't see'.
(snip)

Has anyone actually gotten to use the comment, "Sorry Coach, that's a $50.00 call"?

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Has anyone actually gotten to use the comment, "Sorry Coach, that's a $50.00 call"?

If you mean "Coach if you would have hired 3 umpires for this game we could have covered that play better?" I have used it a couple of times, and have heard it used MANY times by partners of mine, one in particular that just has the ability to get away with using it!!!

[Andy]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Has anyone actually gotten to use the comment, "Sorry Coach, that's a $50.00 call"?

I have used it, but only when working FP as a single umpire.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

I have used it, but only when working FP as a single umpire.

I've heard it HERE a bunch of times. In real life, I've heard it exactly once. And about 20 minutes later I overheard said coach yelling at a board member that my partner was asking the coach to pay him $50 to make calls his way.

Laughing about it now, but was VERY uncomfortable at the time.