OBS or Tag Up

[tcannizzo]

Due to the current lull, I bring up a sitch that happened twice almost identically, in one weekend, with two different sets of teams, about a month ago.

2-man mechanics ASA:
R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, B3 hits long fly ball down the left field line, 175-180ft.
PU has catch/no catch, fair/foul, and R1.
BU comes inside, button hooks for tag up responsibilities for R2.

F7 makes heroic effort, but does not make catch in either case. Fair ball.

Apparently there was OBS at 1B by F3 on B3 and was not seen by either ump due to the angles on the play, which was brought up by each OC.

Explanation to OC in each case was the same; that this is simply one of the imperfections of the 2-man mechanics, where there are spots on the field and no eyes.

Was that a valid answer?
What are the best mechanics on this?

P.S. In both cases B3 made it safely to 2B on the plays being made on the lead runners. So, it was moot.

[RKBUmp]

As you explained, 2 sets of eyes cant watch 3 offensive players. Not much else to explain except you cant call what you didnt see and because of the nature of the play it put both umpires backs to the BR.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Explanation to OC in each case was the same; that this is simply one of the imperfections of the 2-man mechanics, where there are spots on the field and no eyes.

Was that a valid answer?
What are the best mechanics on this?

You cannot call what you didn't see and under no circumstance to you lie to anyone.

With experience, some umpires learn how to gauge situations and find a point to try to get the ability to possibly catch as much action as possible.

[Big Slick]

I'm confused as to why this is a difficult situation. According to a recent thread about umpire responsibilities with multiple runners, this seems rather routine.

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

2-man mechanics ASA:
R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, B3 hits long fly ball down the left field line, 175-180ft.
PU has catch/no catch, fair/foul, and R1.
BU comes inside, button hooks for tag up responsibilities for R2.

F7 makes heroic effort, but does not make catch in either case. Fair ball.

Apparently there was OBS at 1B by F3 on B3 and was not seen by either ump due to the angles on the play, which was brought up by each OC.
...

What are the best mechanics on this?

PU Priority one: fair foul. Being that the ball is hit down the left field line, that forces PU to move up the line, most likely past the holding zone. PU's position may even resemble more of a calling position at 3rd, which is good considering . . .

PU Priority two: PU needs to read the play and a) take any runner being played on at home OR b) non BR's at 3rd. In this particular play, the ball was not caught and now PU must take non BR's at third. R1 in this case will score without a play. If one is so worried about R1 missing the plate, PU can peek 45-50 feet. IMO, too many umpire are worried about runners missing the plate without a play.

Now let's turn our attention to BU.
BU Priority one: R2 tag at second. As you stated, BU came inside. That's fine, but now he must line himself up with 2nd and the ball, while realizing that the BR is to his back. Once the ball is not caught (or caught), BU will watch the tag up and hold his position at 2nd being if R2 goes to 3rd, it is not his responsibility. While not stated in the OP, I'm sure R1 was off when the ball isn't caught. Therefore, BU should look ahead and make sure PU is where he is suppose to be (at 3rd) and . .
BU Priority two: BR. BU should now quickly focus on the BR by opening up to 1st and the ball (maybe even getting a bit deeper into the infield to avoid throwing lanes) and read what BR is doing. If she round and goes to 2nd, take a calling position at 2nd. If she stops at 1st, then move to a calling position at first.

[CecilOne]

In "BU will watch the tag up and hold his position at 2nd being if R1 goes to 3rd, it is not his responsibility", did you mean R2 goes to 3rd?

Either way, is BU not being resp. for 3rd only if PU has no play at home?

[DeputyUICHousto]

I believe the BU has "intermediate" runners at 3B. I could be wrong.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

I believe the BU has "intermediate" runners at 3B. I could be wrong.

No, as was discussed Here

Also, from the mechanics manual:
In the section marked "FP with runners on second and third" BASE UMPIRE.
. . .
4. On all balls hit through the infield or to the outfield that you do not go out on, immediately come inside the diamond, button hook and take the batter-runner all the way to third base.

And in the preamble to the two umpire system:
"The PLATE UMPIRE should be prepared to take a share of the base plays. The lead runner, if there is more than one on the bases, it he plate umpire's responsibility. . . . If there are two runners on base and the next batter hits for extra bases which will score the lead runner without a play, the plate umpire pays little attention other than noting that the runner touched third base and the plate. Attention then is directed to the second runner and the play that may be made. The BASE UMPIRE meanwhile ascertains that all runners touch second and First Bases (sic) and takes whatever plays are made on the batter-runner."

Furthermore:
"There are four times a base umpire will make a call at third base:
1. On the batter-runner on a triple with no runners on base.
2. One the last runner into third base.
3. On a lone runner on fly ball advancement.
4. On any return throw from the plate area or a cut-off by a player."

Therefore, in the OP, BU does not have responsibility on R2 once she advances to third, and must pick up the BR. If, in the OP, the catch was made, then BU would take R2 into third (that's a combination of #2 and #3).

Your comment may be referring to #4, but this is not the OP.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

No, as was discussed Here

.

Yeah, I was looking for that. The last comment:

"By the book PU should be there unless there is a throw that takes them home. BU by the book covers a play on a lead runner at 3B if there is a throw that is returning from home, or cut off while on it's way to home and then thrown to 3B to make a play. In a follow up thread you asked to not worry about if there was a throw, well you can't disreguard this fact since it changes the coverage. Ex. If bases are loaded and there is a base hit to the outfield the PU should move into the holding zone and read the play being ready to move into position at 3B or home depending on what happens. IF there is going to be a play at the plate then PU needs to move toward the plate and take that play, any subsquent play on a throw being returned to 3B from the plate area will be the BU's call on R2. Now if R1 is going to score with no play the PU should stay in the holding zone and see the touch of home over their shoulder while preparing for a play at 3B on another lead runner. So the quick answer to your question is, if there is a play at the plate (which could just be a throw to the plate) on a lead runner, then as a BU you know you have to cover a return throw to 3B on another runner. If there isn't a play/throw toward home then by the book PU should have that play at 3B. Still always a good idea to look, could be possible PU got fooled and thought there was a play developing at plate and you may be in a better position to take the call but as always this is a deviation so COMMUNICATE and make sure it's clear you are taking that call at 3B. "

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

I'm confused as to why this is a difficult situation. According to a recent thread about umpire responsibilities with multiple runners, this seems rather routine.



PU Priority one: fair foul. Being that the ball is hit down the left field line, that forces PU to move up the line, most likely past the holding zone. PU's position may even resemble more of a calling position at 3rd, which is good considering . . .

PU Priority two: PU needs to read the play and a) take any runner being played on at home OR b) non BR's at 3rd. In this particular play, the ball was not caught and now PU must take non BR's at third. R1 in this case will score without a play. If one is so worried about R1 missing the plate, PU can peek 45-50 feet. IMO, too many umpire are worried about runners missing the plate without a play.

Now let's turn our attention to BU.
BU Priority one: R2 tag at second. As you stated, BU came inside. That's fine, but now he must line himself up with 2nd and the ball, while realizing that the BR is to his back. Once the ball is not caught (or caught), BU will watch the tag up and hold his position at 2nd being if R2 goes to 3rd, it is not his responsibility. While not stated in the OP, I'm sure R1 was off when the ball isn't caught. Therefore, BU should look ahead and make sure PU is where he is suppose to be (at 3rd) and . .
BU Priority two: BR. BU should now quickly focus on the BR by opening up to 1st and the ball (maybe even getting a bit deeper into the infield to avoid throwing lanes) and read what BR is doing. If she round and goes to 2nd, take a calling position at 2nd. If she stops at 1st, then move to a calling position at first.

This is absolutelty correct, but it doesn't solve the issue presented in the OP.

BU's first priority is the tag up at second on the potential catch. The issue is that by the time that catch is made or not made, the OBS at first base has already happened with no eyes in that area. Another one of the drawbacks of the two umpire system.

We have to work in priorities. EA had a great article on her website a few years back regarding prioritites. Unfortunately, it's not available at this time.

And yes, it is perfectly acceptable to tell a coach that you were covering your first responsibility and did not see something that happened behind you.

[MD Longhorn]

I would not go inside on this particular play unless I noticed my partner staying at home (he shouldn't, but it could happen). It makes your tag-up angle at 2nd worse, and takes BR completely out of your vision. If you're at B, and take a few steps toward 2nd (toward whatever angle on the catch and 2nd base you feel is ideal for you), you can glance at 1st base for the touch and possible OBS. Obviously, if BR's approach of first base coincides with the catch, you aren't going to get it except for VERY peripherally (and maybe not even that), but at least you're in the best spot for the tag AND for possibly checking 1st base.

Also, I should note to the OP... Many good teams have a coach watching the umpires. There may not have been OBS on the play you're talking about at all... but when the coach noticed that you didn't look over - he went out to ask you about it, knowing you didn't see it and would likely believe him - and hoping that you might do something about it.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

...
If you're at B, and take a few steps toward 2nd (toward whatever angle on the catch and 2nd base you feel is ideal for you), you can glance at 1st base for the touch and possible OBS.
...

You're not at "B" but the position informally known as "C". Are you saying, get to "B" and then do as suggested?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

You're not at "B" but the position informally known as "C". Are you saying, get to "B" and then do as suggested?

Badly worded. I wasn't saying to move from B to this spot, but rather giving directions to that spot. Doesn't read that way, though, does it?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I would not go inside on this particular play unless I noticed my partner staying at home (he shouldn't, but it could happen). It makes your tag-up angle at 2nd worse, and takes BR completely out of your vision. If you're at B, and take a few steps toward 2nd (toward whatever angle on the catch and 2nd base you feel is ideal for you), you can glance at 1st base for the touch and possible OBS. Obviously, if BR's approach of first base coincides with the catch, you aren't going to get it except for VERY peripherally (and maybe not even that), but at least you're in the best spot for the tag AND for possibly checking 1st base.

I'm confused.
I don't see how outside makes the tag up angle worse, especially coming from left side.
To me, getting inside, facing 2nd with 1st and left field seen peripherally would cover all and not be in any throwing lane.
Yes, if PU stays home, an angle switch to face 2nd & 3rd would be needed. In that case, PU is off 3rd base line, able to look toward 1st as usual.

[CecilOne]

I guess I presented ambiguity about PU and 3rd in this thread and my Mechanics Review thread.
That was based on most of my experience having pre-games that said PU stays home if any play. Now I see that PU is still responsible for 3rd, unless physically can't get there after a close play a home or some impediment.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I guess I presented ambiguity about PU and 3rd in this thread and my Mechanics Review thread.
That was based on most of my experience having pre-games that said PU stays home if any play. Now I see that PU is still responsible for 3rd, unless physically can't get there after a close play a home or some impediment one of the four exceptions listed in the ASA mechanics manual.

Fixed it for you

Cecil, I'm not picking here nor intend to offend. However, I have found it is better to stick to the language of the book, including mechanics and rules. We can argue the validity of the issues ("outside-inside theory") but keeping to a common language is key. Just like the mechanics themselves, they are STANDARD so we don't have pre-games where people are freelancing and you have no idea what they are doing.